Toy4x4 Digest          Mon, 12 Jan 98 12:30:01 (HST)  Volume 1 : Issue 651
 Today's Topics:
 4Runner tire sizes
 89 4 Runner (3 msgs)
 Antartic LC's
 BFG Mud Terrain vs. Super Swamper TSL
 do your own work?
 dual batteries?
 FREE FLOW CAT
 gears or lockers?
 Gorman Trip
 Heater in 1st Gen 4 Runner
 Locked and ready
 Locking Diffs
 NWOR & Downey (2 msgs)
 Optima Battery (18 msgs)
 Optima R
 Snorkel (3 msgs)
 Stuck Timing Chain Cover (3 msgs)
 Timing Chain Cover Stuck
 water fording kit? (3 msgs)
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:42:33 -0600
 From: John Vargus  Subject: 4Runner tire sizes
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 I made this switch on a 97 4-runner.  Im not happy with it. It can only be
 driven on-road, lost gas mileage, and it does bottem into the fender wells.
 I will be dropping back down once these tires wear out.
 John
 At 01:05 PM 1/11/98 -0500, you wrote:>I would like to replace the factory street tires (P265/70R16) )on my (wif=>e's) 96 4Runner Ltd with BFG AT P285/75R16 (on stock 16" alloys). Size wi=>se, this is like going from the 31's to the 32's.   Has anyone tried this=> on a 96+ 4Runner w/16" alloys?  At 10 cm wider each side of the tire and=> about 5 cm taller it looks like there should not be a problem, but you c=>an't tell for sure unless you try it out.  Thanks.>>Martin Gotch>96 4Runner Ltd V6/auto, Bilstiens>92 DxCab V6/auto BFG AT 32's,Chevy buckets & Bilstiens> ------------------------------
 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:11:47 -0800
 From: Bill Stormont  Subject: 89 4 Runner
 To: Toy4x4tlca.org@SMTP, Toy4x4@tlca.org
 Does anyone have any opinion on this year and model with a 22r in it?
 I'm considering an automatic. What are the pros an cons of these
 transmission types?
 Any info most appreciated.
 Thanks.
 Bill
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 07:25:30 -1000 (HST)
 From: Eric Johnson  Subject: 89 4 Runner
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Bill Stormont wrote:> Does anyone have any opinion on this year and model with a 22r in it?> I'm considering an automatic. What are the pros an cons of these> transmission types?
 If its a US '89, its a 22RE, not a 22R. The difference is the 22RE has
 fuel injection, which (putting on my flame suit here) is vastly superior
 in most ways to the carbureted version, though the 22R is vastly superior
 to many other small carbureted engines.
 The A340H is a great transmission. One nice thing about it is the transfer
 case has a nice low 2.6:1 low range, compared to the 2.3:1 low range in
 manual models. This tranny is also known as the Aisin-Warner AW4, which
 Jeep uses in many of their models.
 Off-road mine works great - its nice to bump up against an object and not
 kill the motor like my buddies, etc. It seems to keep fairly cool too - I
 once towed my sailbaot from Portland to Seattle in 100F weather without
 the temp light ever coming on.
 Downsides: like any automatic, going downhill isn't so great off road
 because you don't have as much engine braking. Also, the automatic sucks a
 few ponies off an already wimpy (though solid and reliable) engine. The
 gas mileage isn't as good either.
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:21:04 -0600
 From: "Michael Rowe"  Subject: 89 4 Runner
 To:  Not sure which auto you have but my '88 with the V6 and auto have been
 great. I wouldn't trade it for a standard ever. It has 176,000 miles on it
 and still going strong. It makes for easy wheeling (offroading).
 Michael Rowe
 '88 4Runner>Does anyone have any opinion on this year and model with a 22r in it?>I'm considering an automatic. What are the pros an cons of these>transmission types?
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:36:36 -0000
 From: runars@isbank.is
 Subject: Antartic LC's
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 I know the trucks I drive are the biggest, baddest, and boldes around
 the world, because they look excakly like the antarctic Toys....
 Ihhhaaa.
 http://www.rhi.hi.is/~runarsi
 Runar.> -----Original Message-----> From:	Scott Wilson [SMTP:swilson@off-road.com]> Sent:	Tuesday, January 06, 1998 10:02 PM> To:	Toy4x4@tlca.org> Subject:	Antartic LC's>> If you think your truck is the biggest, baddest around this site has a> good chance at bruising your ego.  ;-)>> This just came across my desk...thought you guys would like it> http://www.arctictrucks.is>> Scott> -->      _____>     /_/_|_\__       Scott Wilson TLCA #5261  CA4WDC #13393>     | _     _ :     88 4Runner SR5 V6>     */_\---/_\'     Santa Clara, CA>      (_)   (_)      http://www.off-road.com/~swilson> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 98 11:40:18 -0600
 From: bwiencek@kcnet.com
 Subject: BFG Mud Terrain vs. Super Swamper TSL
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, "NUNES, ROB"  wrote:>F.Y.I.>The 32-9.5-15 Radial Swampers have no sound to them on the highway and>they look awesome to boot.
 Are you saying I can get a set of radial swampers and not be annoyed on the
 highway??  How about Vibrations?  I'm going to be using them on the 4Runner,
 and I'm used to my Dunlop Radial Rovers, so it's going to be tough to
 convince me that a true mud tire is going to be 'acceptable' as far as noise
 goes... I'd settle for a bit louder, and would put up with a little wander on
 the highway, but I don't want to have to feel like I can't talk to the
 passenger at a normal level of conversation (in a truck that is) Anyone near
 KC that has a set of these ? I'd love to take a ride before I shell out the
 $$$ this summer I'm thinking of tires in the 33x12.5x15 range, and have had
 the BFG Mud's that were too loud & vibrated a lot once worn down a bit.
 - - Brian
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:30:30 -0500
 From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
 Subject: do your own work?
 To: toy4x4@tlca.org> Dave Schoenberg sez:> You have just discovered the reason the> rest of us work on our own rigs.
 hmmm - I can tell you the number of times I've busted bolts or screwup up something
 doing it myself. Ive fired myselfe so many times its a wonder I still hire myslef back.
 Its a good thing the labor rate is cheap - the cost can go into tools that all my friends
 borrow so I spend repair time calling friends to get all my tools back (which is
 usually settled by - you come over to get your flywheel turner, but you have to help
 me take the flywheel out first).
 Of course - you do know exactly what was done (and what wasnt done) and do gain an
 appreciate for the difficulties that *honest* repair shops go through. Like trying to
 trakc down electrical issues. (I wonder if that new rear defroster wiring works?)
 EWong
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 07:43:04 -1000 (HST)
 From: Eric Johnson  Subject: dual batteries?
 To: toy4x4@tlca.org
 Ok, what kind of success have you all had with squeezing dual batteries in
 the toy engine bay with a 22RE? I'd love to go duals since I hope to get a
 winch soon, but I'm having trouble figuring out how/where to mount a
 second battery. The best I can figure with my '87 is to relocate the
 washer reservoir and squeeze two batteries in that area...
 ej@off-road.com   http://www.off-road.com/~ej
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 07:53:04 -0800
 From: Dan Merrick  Subject: FREE FLOW CAT
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 Does anyone know a source for a replacement or performance catalytic
 converter? I am sorta hesitant about supporting Downey or NWOR, from what I
 have heard from the list...Oh, my truck is an '85 22R, carbureted.
 Thanks!
 Dan Merrick
 '85 shortbed, 31' BFGs, 2" shackles
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:25:24 -0500
 From: Dan Newby  Subject: gears or lockers?
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 Jason,
 I would recomend doing both gears and lockers at the same time. Unless you
 are not sure you really want the lockers. Otherwise you'll pay labor costs
 to do the same thing twice.
 I just recently, last month, had 5.29 gears and EZ Lockers installed on my
 94 truck. They quoted me $700 for the gears including installation, plus
 $565 for both lockers. Since it was gears and lockers were installed at the
 same time, the labor rate wasn't changed. Infact the labor rate was $300
 for the job. Doug's Off Road in Maryville, TN was who worked on mine.
 Dan Newby
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:46:59 -0800
 From: "John M. Smith"  Subject: Gorman Trip
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 With regards to the Gorman Trip where? and when? will people be meeting,
 I am new to this list and look forward to tagging a long if that is OK
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:38:26 -0800
 From: "Roger Brown P.E."  Subject: Heater in 1st Gen 4 Runner
 To: amigo@azstarnet.com
 Scott wrote:>> Had a unfortunate flood in my 4 Runner today.. looks like the heater
 core is leaking, filled up the passenger side pretty good -  nothing like
 hot antifreeze smells in the morning (thankfully there's a floor drain plug
 there).
 ...
< Subject: Locked and ready
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 Hello all,
 Just thought i would share my experiences with my R&P install. I finally
 installed my 4:88's and ARB in the rear. What a difference it makes on and
 off road.
 I and a friend of mine (toy mechanic) did the work. Acquired some great new
 tools and learned alot of new toy installation tricks.
 The front will be upgraded next weekend with 4:88's and truetrac.
 Would i do it again, definitely. As someone said to me, JB, nothing like
 the smell of gear oil at the crack of dawn :)
 John A. Vargus
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:29:00 -0500
 From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
 Subject: Locking Diffs
 To: toy4x4@tlca.org> Allen Jensen sez:> Powertrax said they are using a new design> that lets it run as an open diff> until it engages, transferring 100% to> the non spinning wheel.
 Not to denegrate the product (as I have no experience with
 it, so I cant comment), BUT
 The ad copy above sounds kinda fishy... in the sense
 that all "auto lockers" (aka Detroit, LockRite and PowerTrax)
 will do that - its inherent in the design.
 If there is *equal traction on both wheels* - a open locker
 *will* drive both wheels equally - just as if it were
 a spool! (note the emphasis on "equal", "both" and "traction")
 If there is unequal traction - then the power goes to the
 wheel with the least traction...
 If this were a "locking" (and as far as I can tell -
 all of the three (Detroit, LockRite, Powertrax) use
 the same general principle - a dog leg clutch seperated
 by a belluvue spring) diff - *then* if there is a
 speed difference between the axles and there is power input
 to the pinion gear (aka the ring gear is driven)
 then the dog clutches will engage and the diff is locked.
 The design differnce between them are mainly in the
 seperating springs and the angle of the dog teeth -
 otherwise - the are basically the same in functional principle.
 (materials, metallurgy, cases (or lack there-of) will
 vary of course).
 This is similar to the "velocity sensitive" claim for shocks -
 they *all* are (except for the $$$ position sensitive
 shocks like the Rancho LightningRod and too a much lesser
 extentent - the Monroe sensatrack)
 (dems mah views: of couse - I have been wrong)
 EWong
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:45:18 -0800
 From: Scott Wilson  Subject: NWOR & Downey
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 Dan Merrick wrote:> I am sorta hesitant about supporting Downey or NWOR, from what I> have heard from the list...
 It's NWOR that so many of us have a beef with.  Very few people here
 have ever had a problem with Downey.  All my experiences with them have
 been very pleasant.
 Scott
 - --
 _____
 /_/_|_\__       Scott Wilson TLCA #5261  CA4WDC #13393
 | _     _ :     88 4Runner SR5 V6
 */_\---/_\'     Santa Clara, CA
 (_)   (_)      http://www.off-road.com/~swilson
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:51:51 -0600
 From: John Vargus  Subject: NWOR & Downey
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 One negative against Downey, they do not know how to pack items for
 shipping. On more than one occasion i have received my items outside thier
 boxes :-(.
 John
 At 09:45 AM 1/12/98 -0800, you wrote:>Dan Merrick wrote:>>> I am sorta hesitant about supporting Downey or NWOR, from what I>> have heard from the list...>>It's NWOR that so many of us have a beef with.  Very few people here>have ever had a problem with Downey.  All my experiences with them have>been very pleasant.>>Scott>-->     _____>    /_/_|_\__       Scott Wilson TLCA #5261  CA4WDC #13393>    | _     _ :     88 4Runner SR5 V6>    */_\---/_\'     Santa Clara, CA>     (_)   (_)      http://www.off-road.com/~swilson>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~> ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:49:25 -0000
 From: runars@isbank.is
 Subject: Optima Battery
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 Funny for sure.
 The WARN expedition to the Icelandic Glacier peak, in '92 used Optimas
 and only Optimas.  70 - 80 pulls, no rest inbetween (only to switch from
 empty battery to a full one).  No problem.
 There are of course few types of Optimas around, some are deep-cycle
 batteries, and those aint ment for high drain devices.
 Runar.> -----Original Message-----> From:	Craig Blanchette [SMTP:blanchet@cnx.net]> Sent:	Monday, January 12, 1998 7:28 AM> To:	Toy4x4@tlca.org> Subject:	Re: Optima Battery>> You better look into the optima batteries real good before you buy> one. I> just bought a battery yesterday. I was going to get a optima battery> but> every battery store in town had plenty to say about them. And it> wasn't> nice. The big problem with them is that they die within weeks if used> with a> winch, stereo, or any high drain device. When I told the stores that I> had a> winch, Every store suggested that it would be a waste of money to buy> an> optima.>> ====> Craig Blanchette> blanchet@cnx.net> http://www.cnx.net/~blanchet> ====> -----Original Message-----> From: Kenneth Fong > To: Toy4x4@tlca.org > Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 11:30 PM> Subject: Optima Battery>>>>I think my Delco battery has just had it.>>>>Does anyone know of a source in the SF Bay Area>>that has the Optima at a good price?>>>>Thanks>> ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 07:05:15 -0600
 From: "Steve C."  Subject: Optima Battery
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 runars@isbank.is wrote:>> Funny for sure.>> The WARN expedition to the Icelandic Glacier peak, in '92 used Optimas> and only Optimas.  70 - 80 pulls, no rest inbetween (only to switch from> empty battery to a full one).  No problem.>> There are of course few types of Optimas around, some are deep-cycle> batteries, and those aint ment for high drain devices.>> Runar.
 Runar, I was under the impression that deep-cycle meant you could
 repeatedly drain the battery and not hurt it.  Am I missing something?
 Maybe we could get some clarification on this.
 BTW I have only heard good things bout Optima!!
 - --
 Steve Capuano			1996 Tacoma ext cab V6 4X4
 capuano@hypercon.com		31x10.50x15 Wrangler RT/S
 Houston, Texas			Rear LockRight  K&N filter
 Edelbrock headers
 NRA lifetime member		Dynomax 2.5" cat back
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:20:32 -0000
 From: runars@isbank.is
 Subject: Optima Battery
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 Firstly I'm no expert on batteries.
 Yes you should be able to drain it repeatedly, without damage.  I
 thought they where originaly designed for the yaching community.  There
 you need a low-amp-draw batteries, that often get drained, and need
 quick reloding.
 What I was trying to say (but didn't get right :-), was that even tho
 you can repeadedly drain them dry, they aint ment for high power
 applications, like winches or starters.  They suport low ampdraw for
 long time, until drained and can still be reloaded.
 Or that is how I understood what that Deep-cycle stuff meant.
 The only bad thing I've heard about Optimas is the price, but that might
 only be the Icelandic dealer....!
 Runar.> -----Original Message-----> From:	Steve C. [SMTP:stevecapuano@geocities.com]> Sent:	Monday, January 12, 1998 1:05 PM> To:	Toy4x4@tlca.org> Subject:	Re: Optima Battery>> runars@isbank.is wrote:>>>> Funny for sure.>>>> The WARN expedition to the Icelandic Glacier peak, in '92 used> Optimas>> and only Optimas.  70 - 80 pulls, no rest inbetween (only to switch> from>> empty battery to a full one).  No problem.>>>> There are of course few types of Optimas around, some are deep-cycle>> batteries, and those aint ment for high drain devices.>>>> Runar.>> Runar, I was under the impression that deep-cycle meant you could> repeatedly drain the battery and not hurt it.  Am I missing something?>> Maybe we could get some clarification on this.>> BTW I have only heard good things bout Optima!!> --> Steve Capuano			1996 Tacoma ext cab V6 4X4> capuano@hypercon.com		31x10.50x15 Wrangler RT/S> Houston, Texas			Rear LockRight  K&N filter> 				Edelbrock headers> NRA lifetime member		Dynomax 2.5" cat back
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:50:20 -0500
 From: Agustinus Gunawan  Subject: Optima Battery
 To: "'Toy4x4@tlca.org'"  I got my optima 3 years ago. Cause at that time they are the strongest
 batery that came in a small package. I use it single in a samurai with
 winch. The alternator is only 60 Amps. I haven't got any problem yet.
 That was three years ago, right now I would go with the yellow top Optimas,
 this is a deep cycle batery and cost you $189, the red top optimas is
 starting battery (cost about $129 retail).
 The amperage rating for optimas are 800 CCA, 2 hours reverse capacity.
 Right now if I have to buy batery I would go to Champion 4X4, it is rated a
 1025 CCA, and 2.5 hour reverse capacity and cost only $ 52 in Sam's Club.
 I install my optima to my 87 Turbo truck and then buy the champion 4X4. I
 felt the champion is stronger. Can't say about winch application since I
 don't have winch in my truck.
 - -----Original Message-----
 From:	runars@isbank.is [SMTP:runars@isbank.is]
 Yes you should be able to drain it repeatedly, without damage.  I
 thought they where originaly designed for the yaching community.  There
 you need a low-amp-draw batteries, that often get drained, and need
 quick reloding.
 * marine batery is different than deep cycle. It would be ruined if you
 cycled it from full to a complete drain even once.
 * deep cycle are meant to be cycled with from full to a complete drain many
 times.
 * Starting batery was designed to provide high amperage on a short run.
 * IN my experience starting batery is the best for winching if the
 alternator could keep it charged. You have to go to deep cycle batery if
 your alternator could not keep up.
 * The best compromise would be to use starting batery as the main battery
 and deep cycle battery as backup battery.
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:03:58 -0500 (EST)
 From: "Dr. Karl Bellve"  Subject: Optima Battery
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Agustinus Gunawan wrote:>> Right now if I have to buy batery I would go to Champion 4X4, it is rated a> 1025 CCA, and 2.5 hour reverse capacity and cost only $ 52 in Sam's Club.> I install my optima to my 87 Turbo truck and then buy the champion 4X4. I> felt the champion is stronger. Can't say about winch application since I> don't have winch in my truck.
 How rugged is this battery? I heard that the higher amp batteries are more
 fragile and are more likely to fail because of this if shocked or jarred
 too much. Much better to get two 750CCA batteries and a battery isolater.
 The reason they are more fragile is due to the thinner lead used to get
 more surface area to hold more charge. I haven't heard of a Champion 4x4,
 maybe it is made to be more rugged. Just my 2 cents worth.
 Cheers,
 Karl Bellve, Ph.D.
 Biomedical Imaging Group
 University of Massachusetts
 WWW  : http://molmed.ummed.edu/~kdb/
 Email: kdb@molmed.ummed.edu
 Phone: (508) 856-3785
 Fax  : (508) 856-1840
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 05:59:20 -0800
 From: Jeff Deifik  Subject: Optima Battery
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 At 23:28 1/11/98 -0800, you wrote:>You better look into the optima batteries real good before you buy one. I>just bought a battery yesterday. I was going to get a optima battery but>every battery store in town had plenty to say about them. And it wasn't>nice. The big problem with them is that they die within weeks if used with a>winch, stereo, or any high drain device. When I told the stores that I had a>winch, Every store suggested that it would be a waste of money to buy an>optima.
 A friend of mine makes electric cars.
 He uses 28 optima batteries in series.
 His car puts out between 150 and 200 hp.
 He often drains 400-500 amps from the batteries while accelerating.
 The OEM batteries used to last 3000 miles, the newer formulation,
 deep discharge ones last 30,000 miles.
 The stores you spoke to are full of sh*t.
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 06:06:25 -0800
 From: Jeff Deifik  Subject: Optima Battery
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 At 12:49 1/12/98 -0000, you wrote:>Funny for sure.>>The WARN expedition to the Icelandic Glacier peak, in '92 used Optimas>and only Optimas.  70 - 80 pulls, no rest inbetween (only to switch from>empty battery to a full one).  No problem.>>There are of course few types of Optimas around, some are deep-cycle>batteries, and those aint ment for high drain devices.
 This is all very amusing, and slightly off base.
 A friend of mine makes and sells high performance electric cars.
 The first generation put out 100 kw (about 134 hp). The newer ones
 put out 150 kw (about 200 hp). He started using Optima batteries because
 they were the best inexpensive (read cheaper than equal capacity ni-cad)
 batteries. They tended to weaken to about 50% capacity (25 amp hours,
 rather than 50 amp hours) in about 3000 miles. I sold perhaps 50 of these
 50% batteries. They still put out 800 cca. Together with Optima, they
 developed the deep-discharge batteries (the yellow top ones). They are
 just as good as the normal batteries, and they have a half-life around
 30,000 miles.
 Bear in mind, while accelerating, he sucks out over 500 amps, and while
 regenerativly braking he charged them around 300 amps.
 The deep discharge batteries are just as good for high drain devices.
 I doubt any winch is a tougher load than a 3000 lb car accelerating
 (0-60 @6 seconds).
 The 800S has just the top terminals. The 800U has top and side terminals.
 Jeff turbo Deifik		turbo@weasel.com		www.weasel.com
 87 Shelby CSX #3
 97 Tacoma v6 4wd
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:25:30 -0000
 From: runars@isbank.is
 Subject: Optima Battery
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 Winches go up to 400 amps.
 Runar.> -----Original Message-----> From:	Jeff Deifik [SMTP:jdeifik@weasel.com]> Sent:	Monday, January 12, 1998 2:06 PM> To:	Toy4x4@tlca.org> Subject:	RE: Optima Battery>> At 12:49 1/12/98 -0000, you wrote:>>Funny for sure.>>>>The WARN expedition to the Icelandic Glacier peak, in '92 used> Optimas>>and only Optimas.  70 - 80 pulls, no rest inbetween (only to switch> from>>empty battery to a full one).  No problem.>>>>There are of course few types of Optimas around, some are deep-cycle>>batteries, and those aint ment for high drain devices.>> This is all very amusing, and slightly off base.>> A friend of mine makes and sells high performance electric cars.> The first generation put out 100 kw (about 134 hp). The newer ones> put out 150 kw (about 200 hp). He started using Optima batteries> because> they were the best inexpensive (read cheaper than equal capacity> ni-cad)> batteries. They tended to weaken to about 50% capacity (25 amp hours,> rather than 50 amp hours) in about 3000 miles. I sold perhaps 50 of> these> 50% batteries. They still put out 800 cca. Together with Optima, they> developed the deep-discharge batteries (the yellow top ones). They are> just as good as the normal batteries, and they have a half-life around> 30,000 miles.>> Bear in mind, while accelerating, he sucks out over 500 amps, and> while> regenerativly braking he charged them around 300 amps.>> The deep discharge batteries are just as good for high drain devices.> I doubt any winch is a tougher load than a 3000 lb car accelerating> (0-60 @6 seconds).>> The 800S has just the top terminals. The 800U has top and side> terminals.>> 	Jeff turbo Deifik		turbo@weasel.com> www.weasel.com>> 87 Shelby CSX #3> 97 Tacoma v6 4wd> ------------------------------
 Date: 12 Jan 1998 08:32:59 -0600
 From: "Youwer, Mark (AZ15)"  Subject: Optima Battery
 To: "Toy4x4@tlca.org"  (IPM Return requested)
 -----Original Message-----
 At 23:28 1/11/98 -0800, you wrote:>You better look into the optima batteries real good before you buy one. I>just bought a battery yesterday. I was going to get a optima battery but>every battery store in town had plenty to say about them. And it wasn't>nice. The big problem with them is that they die within weeks if used with a>winch, stereo, or any high drain device. When I told the stores that I had a>winch, Every store suggested that it would be a waste of money to buy an>optima.
 Do these stores that are bad mouthing Optima batteries sell them? I would
 guess not,
 hence the bad mouthing to get your sale.
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:52:52 -0700
 From: "Jay Kopycinski"  Subject: Optima Battery
 To: Toyota 4x4 List  Brandon Miller  wrote:>Funny, I was told just the opposite.  I have left my cb on, lights, etc. many>times and my optima is running strong. Anybody had problems with their Optima?
 I have killed one or two, but had them replaced under warantee. The standard
 Optima is NOT a deep cycle battery and they do not like to be run way down.
 I you do run it very low, it needs to be slow charged back on a 2 amp charger
 setting. Best thing about Optimas is that there is no acid leaking or out-gassing
 under your hood.
 I know one guy that has a Black Panther gel cell in his Jeep and another
 with one in his Harley. These batteries are smaller than normal and have
 even higher current capacities....and cost more too. Too soon to determine
 how well they last.
 Jay Kopycinski      '85 Toylet  (ROKTOY)
 ------------------------------
 Date: 12 Jan 98 08:38:13 PST
 From: Norman.Goetz@directory.reed.edu (Norman Goetz)
 Subject: Optima Battery
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 - --- You wrote:
 How rugged is this battery? I heard that the higher amp batteries are more
 fragile and are more likely to fail because of this if shocked or jarred
 too much. Much better to get two 750CCA batteries and a battery isolater.
 The reason they are more fragile is due to the thinner lead used to get
 more surface area to hold more charge.
 - --- end of quote ---
 The Optimas are the most rugged battery I've heard of, because the plates are
 wrapped in a spiral with separators tightly between them.  There is no space
 between the plates, so no way they can break.  What you say is true of high CCA
 wet-cell batteries.
 The red top is 800 CCA and better for starting, the yellow top is 750 CCA and
 better for lower current uses, but they have the same reserve capacity and
 recharge rate, and are more the same than different.  You can use the yellow
 top for starting if you don't need more than 750 CCA.  Although they may need
 careful recharging if run flat, the point is that other batteries would either
 be junk or permanently damaged.  They are also more resistant to freezing if
 left in the cold when discharged, since there is no liquid to freeze.  The
 electrolyte in a wet cell battery is freeze-proof diluted sulfuric acid when
 the battery is charged, but just ordinary water when discharged.
 Norman
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:50:30 -0800
 From: "Karl Bellve, PhD"  Subject: Optima Battery
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 Norman Goetz wrote:>> --- You wrote:> How rugged is this battery? I heard that the higher amp batteries are more> fragile and are more likely to fail because of this if shocked or jarred> too much. Much better to get two 750CCA batteries and a battery isolater.> The reason they are more fragile is due to the thinner lead used to get> more surface area to hold more charge.> --- end of quote --->> The Optimas are the most rugged battery I've heard of, because the plates are> wrapped in a spiral with separators tightly between them.  There is no space> between the plates, so no way they can break.  What you say is true of high CCA> wet-cell batteries.
 Yes, I was refering to the Champion 4x4 battery that the previous poster
 said was a cheaper but
 a decent alternative to the Optima. I was pointing out that most
 batteries, unlike the Optima,
 were fragile if they had large CCAs. But, I didn't know anything about
 the champion 4x4 battery.>> Norman
 - --
 Karl Bellve, Ph.D.
 Biomedical Imaging Group
 University of Massachusetts
 email: kdb@molmed.ummed.edu
 www  : http://molmed.ummed.edu/~kdb/
 phone: 508-856-3785
 fax  : 508-856-1840
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:03:48 -0000
 From: runars@isbank.is
 Subject: Optima Battery
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 If I recall right the Optimas (red top) had the biggest advange of
 retaining almost full crank rate at sub-zero temps (f.e. @-20 deg
 celcius) where the performance of wet-cell bateries are seriusly
 reduced.  They are also only half the weight.
 Personly I'm very happy with my dual Delta setup.  Enough charge there
 to drive for hours with full lights, and failed alternator.....;-))
 And no stubit isolator.
 Actually I'm not sure weither I have a pure 12 volt system or a 24/12
 volt system....!
 Runar, the Diesel dick.> -----Original Message-----> From:	Norman.Goetz@directory.reed.edu> [SMTP:Norman.Goetz@directory.reed.edu]> Sent:	Monday, January 12, 1998 4:38 PM> To:	Toy4x4@tlca.org> Subject:	RE: Optima Battery>> --- You wrote:> How rugged is this battery? I heard that the higher amp batteries are> more> fragile and are more likely to fail because of this if shocked or> jarred> too much. Much better to get two 750CCA batteries and a battery> isolater.> The reason they are more fragile is due to the thinner lead used to> get> more surface area to hold more charge.> --- end of quote --->> The Optimas are the most rugged battery I've heard of, because the> plates are> wrapped in a spiral with separators tightly between them.  There is no> space> between the plates, so no way they can break.  What you say is true of> high CCA> wet-cell batteries.>> The red top is 800 CCA and better for starting, the yellow top is 750> CCA and> better for lower current uses, but they have the same reserve capacity> and> recharge rate, and are more the same than different.  You can use the> yellow> top for starting if you don't need more than 750 CCA.  Although they> may need> careful recharging if run flat, the point is that other batteries> would either> be junk or permanently damaged.  They are also more resistant to> freezing if> left in the cold when discharged, since there is no liquid to freeze.> The> electrolyte in a wet cell battery is freeze-proof diluted sulfuric> acid when> the battery is charged, but just ordinary water when discharged.>> Norman
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:34:57 -0800
 From: Kenneth Fong  Subject: Optima Battery
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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 I have heard what Brandon has.  That is why I want to upgrade.Everyone I've talked to
 so far says it's worth the money.
 I should look into further.> ------------------------------>> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:34:12 -0800> From: Brandon Miller > Subject: Optima Battery> To: Toy4x4@tlca.org>> Funny, I was told just the opposite.  I have left my cb on, lights, etc. many> times and my optima is running strong. Anybody had problems with their Optima?> Brandon>> Craig Blanchette wrote:>>> You better look into the optima batteries real good before you buy one. I>> just bought a battery yesterday. I was going to get a optima battery but>> every battery store in town had plenty to say about them. And it wasn't>> nice. The big problem with them is that they die within weeks if used with a>> winch, stereo, or any high drain device. When I told the stores that I had a>> winch, Every store suggested that it would be a waste of money to buy an>> optima.> - --------------9FA82D04DA489A5F926C6764
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 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:19:22 -8 GMT
 From: "Leo G. Divinagracia III"  Subject: Optima Battery
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org> From: "Craig Blanchette" >> You better look into the optima batteries real good before you buy one. I> just bought a battery yesterday. I was going to get a optima battery but> every battery store in town had plenty to say about them. And it wasn't> nice. The big problem with them is that they die within weeks if used with a> winch, stereo, or any high drain device. When I told the stores that I had a> winch, Every store suggested that it would be a waste of money to buy an> optima.> i've had an optima now for over 4 years.  not the same one, but optima has
 honored the 2 year replacement warranty.  maybe it's just my vehicle but i've
 gotten so much corrosion on the neg terminal that at worst, i can't even
 start the car.
 but i've talked to a bunch of other optima owners and never had that
 problem...
 i've talked to the president of the company two years ago.  he told me that
 the reason their batteries fail during high amp draw is that people just
 don't charge it right after use.  a good weekend at surprise canyon can kill
 just about any battery, but he went on to say that their batteries are good
 for such purposes.  not to worry about it...  just take care of it.
 so, if had to buy another battery?  i'd shell out for another optima...
 - -----------------------
 Leo G. Divinagracia III
 ldivinag@csuhayward.edu
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:42:10 -0500
 From: Agustinus Gunawan  Subject: Optima Battery
 To: "'Toy4x4@tlca.org'"  I have this battery just for 4 month right now. So I cannot say about
 durability. But for the price it was well worth it. I start the truck in
 gear many times after a stall and it never have problem yet. They felt to
 have more power than my 3 year old optima (never have been completely drain
 which will cause power degradation)
 I don't recall exactly but a few month back 4 wheel & off-road or 4 wheeler
 have an article about choosing the right battery and they mention the
 champion 4X4 and the optima.
 The other reason I bought this battery are because if you drain the optima
 the performance would degrade considerably. Except the yellow top which is
 deep cycle but cost a fortune. They might have a 6 year warranty but if you
 drain them its not covered by the warranty.
 - -----Original Message-----
 From:	Dr. Karl Bellve [SMTP:kdb@molmed.ummed.edu]
 How rugged is this battery? I heard that the higher amp batteries are more
 fragile and are more likely to fail because of this if shocked or jarred
 too much. Much better to get two 750CCA batteries and a battery isolater.
 The reason they are more fragile is due to the thinner lead used to get
 more surface area to hold more charge. I haven't heard of a Champion 4x4,
 maybe it is made to be more rugged. Just my 2 cents worth.
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:57:12 -0500
 From: Agustinus Gunawan  Subject: Optima Battery
 To: "'Toy4x4@tlca.org'"  I agree they are the safest and the most rugged battery around.
 I Have seen a cracked Optima still crank an engine easily.
 This happen in a group N Gallant VR4 rally car. It hit a tree and the
 battery body cracked. But it still start after we push the car from the
 ditch..
 - -----Original Message-----
 From:	Norman Goetz [SMTP:Norman.Goetz@directory.reed.edu]
 The Optimas are the most rugged battery I've heard of, because the plates
 are wrapped in a spiral with separators tightly between them.  There is no
 space between the plates, so no way they can break.  What you say is true
 of high CCA wet-cell batteries.
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:59:16 -0500
 From: Agustinus Gunawan  Subject: Optima Battery
 To: "'Toy4x4@tlca.org'"  I have this battery for 3 years in my Samurai they never have corrosion problem. Not even a slight of it.
 - -----Original Message-----
 From:	Leo G. Divinagracia III [SMTP:LDIVINAG@barney.sbe.csuhayward.edu]
 i've had an optima now for over 4 years.  not the same one, but optima has
 honored the 2 year replacement warranty.  maybe it's just my vehicle but i've
 gotten so much corrosion on the neg terminal that at worst, i can't even
 start the car.
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:39:55 -0300
 From: Biodiversity Park  Subject: Optima R
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 I have two type R with 1 lug at the top. I have not used them for 6
 mts.and they start ok.I have attached two 250,000 candle spot lights on one
 battery for 4 hours,while navegating a rockey creek at night.I have an
 Optima in  my Hi-Lux twin cap and used the 12,000 lb Warn ,with no problems.
 For off road I advise the R ,as the side lug can be dangerous if not in use
 or covered.
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:39:12 -0000
 From: runars@isbank.is
 Subject: Snorkel
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 Cut a hole in the firewall, and connect the hose to it.  That way you
 will breath from inside the truck.  Works like hell.
 Runar.> -----Original Message-----> From:	pelland@ix.netcom.com [SMTP:pelland@ix.netcom.com]> Sent:	Monday, January 12, 1998 3:18 AM> To:	Toy4x4@tlca.org> Subject:	Snorkel>> How long a hose/tube can I put off my airbox to draw air from a higher>> location without restricting airflow?>> I was thinking about a traditional snorkel comming up thru the fender,> but> do not like the idea of cutting the fender.>> Looking at the truck I see that I could come out out the air box with> a 2"> hose and run on top of the frame rail to the pickup bed then up over> the cab> attached to my headache bar. This would make for a 14 ft hose, but> would> require only one out of sight hole to be drilled and a bunch of> wireties.> I would have to use suction hose, swimming pool suction line or maybe> radiator hose to keep it open but flexable.>> I have twice gotten mud and water into the airbox with the behind the> headlight setup and am sick of that poor design.>> Will I starve the engine for air with a long intake Hose?> If not any other possible downsides?> Any other brainstorms to solve this problem?> Do I want more air entering the system at higher speeds? A scoop at> the top> could force air in.>> I want to make this fix one that will meet my current and future> needs.>> Mike Pelland			1994 Toyota Extracab pickup> Lots of extras, http://www2.netcom.com/~pelland/
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 06:47:11 -0600
 From: "Steve C."  Subject: Snorkel
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 runars@isbank.is wrote:>> Cut a hole in the firewall, and connect the hose to it.  That way you> will breath from inside the truck.  Works like hell.> YEAH and turn the AC on high and you have a built in
 intercoooler!!!!!!!!
 - --
 Steve Capuano			1996 Tacoma ext cab V6 4X4
 capuano@hypercon.com		31x10.50x15 Wrangler RT/S
 Houston, Texas			Rear LockRight  K&N filter
 Edelbrock headers
 NRA lifetime member		Dynomax 2.5" cat back
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:10:22 -0000
 From: runars@isbank.is
 Subject: Snorkel
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 I wasn't joking......:-))
 Old trick up here, but you don't have it connected unless you really
 need it...
 Those Galcical rivers can get pretty deep, you know.
 never thougt about using the AC, (probably since cars usually don't have
 AC in Iceland...!), but its kind of nice idea, specially on turbo
 diesels....
 Runar.> -----Original Message-----> From:	Steve C. [SMTP:stevecapuano@geocities.com]> Sent:	Monday, January 12, 1998 12:47 PM> To:	Toy4x4@tlca.org> Subject:	Re: Snorkel>> runars@isbank.is wrote:>>>> Cut a hole in the firewall, and connect the hose to it.  That way> you>> will breath from inside the truck.  Works like hell.>>>>> YEAH and turn the AC on high and you have a built in> intercoooler!!!!!!!!>> --> Steve Capuano			1996 Tacoma ext cab V6 4X4> capuano@hypercon.com		31x10.50x15 Wrangler RT/S> Houston, Texas			Rear LockRight  K&N filter> 				Edelbrock headers> NRA lifetime member		Dynomax 2.5" cat back
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:35:42 -0600
 From: Clif Moyers  Subject: Stuck Timing Chain Cover
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 One other potentially overlooked bolt resides behind the water pump.
 This one is a short bolt that goes through a tang in the front of the
 block and threads into the back of the timing chain cover.  This one is
 every bit as illusive as the much published one below the cam sprocket
 (drowning in oil!).
 Make a note of the length of each cover bolt and where it came from.
 There must be 5 different lengths!
 Clif
 - --
 Clif Moyers
 (cmoyers@mickey.cti-pet.com)
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:19:27 -0600 (CST)
 From: gfrancis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg S. Francis)
 Subject: Stuck Timing Chain Cover
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 The culprit turned out to be a long bolt throught the oil pump casing that
 was not identified in the manual as one to be removed.  I found it by trial
 and error.  I checked the manual (factory) several times and it is
 certainly not marked as a bolt to be removed!  It cost me a couple hours of
 tugging and head-scratching, but it's a done deal now.  Thanks for all of
 the help.
 - -Greg
 Greg S. Francis
 University of Texas @ Austin
 School of Architecture
 gfrancis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
 TLCA Member #5558
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:12:31 -0800 (PST)
 From: Luke P Miller  Subject: Stuck Timing Chain Cover
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 I guess if I had ben paying attention to this thread I could have told you
 that little secret. I had the same problem in September while trying to do
 my timing chain. And I'll agree, it certainly doesn't seem to be mentioned
 in my factory manual either. I'm sure I invented several new dirty words
 before and after figuring that bolt out.
 Luke Miller
 '85 4Runner
 On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Greg S. Francis wrote:> The culprit turned out to be a long bolt throught the oil pump casing that> was not identified in the manual as one to be removed.  I found it by trial> and error.  I checked the manual (factory) several times and it is> certainly not marked as a bolt to be removed!  It cost me a couple hours of> tugging and head-scratching, but it's a done deal now.  Thanks for all of> the help.> -Greg
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:47:27 -0600
 From: Clif Moyers  Subject: Timing Chain Cover Stuck
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 What about the short bolt through a tang on the side of the block into
 the chain cover that is behind the water pump.  It, like the one drowing
 in oil under the cam sprocket, is quite illusive as well!
 Also, measure each bolt and sketch where each goes!
 Clif
 reg S. Francis wrote:>> I am in the middle of replacing the timing chain on my 22re, due to a> broken guide.  I have read several accounts of people managing to remove> the chain cover without pulling the head OR dropping the oil pan.  I am> curious what trick you used to accomplish this.  I have removed all the> bolts from the timing cover (yes, even the hidden ones), and cannot get it> to budge.  It is pretty well sandwiched between the head and pan.  Also, if> this does not work, how far do I have to drop the pan.  I have a Rancho 3"> lift, will I have to remove the diff (IFS)?> Thanks for any help.
 Have you removed the two bolts from oil pan? what about the bolt from
 the cylinder head into the timing cover, the one that is located in
 front of the distributor drive gear? It is usually covered in engine
 oil.
 - - --
 Jim Brink--Toyota/ASE Certified Technician             '86 Std. Bed 22R
 Manhattan Beach, CA                                32x11.50/15 BFG M/Ts
 ToyTech@off-road.com
 http://geiger.mcl.ucsb.edu/jim/jim.html
 ************************************************************************
 TLCA# 6184/ Friends of the Mojave Road (FOMR)
 - --
 Clif Moyers
 (cmoyers@mickey.cti-pet.com)
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 98 13:13:00 -0500
 From: Rosenberger Bud  Subject: water fording kit?
 To: "mail@UUCP {Toy4x4@tlca.org}"  With all the discussion about water in the axles lately, does any one use
 positive air pressure to keep water out?  We have a couple of old
 military vehicles around and they pressurize the diffs via a dash switch
 and it keeps water out of the diffs, tranny and t-case.  Basically like
 diff breathers all plumbed together and then air pressure( low, but not
 sure how much) is pumped in.  It leaks past the weak seals in the system
 and keeps it all dry.  They call it a Water fording kit.  Seems like a
 good idea and not too hard to do.  Any thoughts?
 Bud R
 ------------------------------
 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:32:15 -0500
 From: Darren Floen  Subject: water fording kit?
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
 Rosenberger Bud wrote:>> With all the discussion about water in the axles lately, does any one use> positive air pressure to keep water out?  We have a couple of old> military vehicles around and they pressurize the diffs via a dash switch> and it keeps water out of the diffs, tranny and t-case.  Basically like> diff breathers all plumbed together and then air pressure( low, but not> sure how much) is pumped in.  It leaks past the weak seals in the system> and keeps it all dry.  They call it a Water fording kit.  Seems like a> good idea and not too hard to do.  Any thoughts?>> Bud R
 I'd be worried about losing gear oil from the rear axle,or pumping gear
 oil into the front hubs with this setup.It probably does keep water out
 though.A decent set of diff breathers does the same thing by allowing
 changes in pressure inside the diffs and cases.A hot diff going into
 cold water creates a vacuum,pulling water in if the breathers are
 clogged.I wonder how much pressure they use?
 Darren
 ------------------------------
 Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 02:00:30 -0800
 From: Chris Geiger  Subject: water fording kit?
 To: Toy4x4@tlca.org> I wonder how much pressure they use?
 I once thought of bringing my vent lines into the heater
 box so that I could put a little pressure on the diff vent
 by just turning on the heater. But when the diffs get hot
 and expell vapors I am sure I would smell it inside the
 cab.
 Chris Geiger 93 4Runner http://geiger.mcl.ucsb.edu/offroad.html
 ------------------------------
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