From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Feb 1 07:49:41 1994 To: lro@transfer.stratus.com From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andy Woodward) Subject: Re: Keep Land Rover British Date: Sun, 30 Jan 1994 13:47:02 Cc: azw@aber.ac.uk Status: RO >> > I'll be damned if I'll go round with a silly round badge stuck on >> > my rad. >> Who can make BMW badges with big red stripes through them? I am getting one next time I pass a BMW dealer. Goes on upside down..... Be interesting (depressing?) to see what happens to the keep-it-the-same policy of Landrovers. Who wants to bet on new models every few years, monocoque construction in pressed tin, spares discontinued after 10 years etc, etc? Still, be nice to be able to get an electric tinted sunroof and velour seats for my 90 van. From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Jan 31 22:27:56 1994 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Land Rover bibles? From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 18:24:30 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO Terry Gilbert writes: > This time around I'd like some recommendations on what reference > books/manuals to get on the Land Rover. I've been eyeing Lindsay Porter's > "Guide to Purchase and DIY Restoration" as a good first choice. This is an excellent book. Other books you should have would be the Factory Manual, possible the Haynes manual for your chosen pet. However, since you are berift of something to shower $$$ and attention upon, any books of this sort should wait until you actually have one. Beyond that, unless you are interested in histories or general guides, the Porter book should do as a good start to your reading. Rgds, Dixon -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Jan 31 22:27:54 1994 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Ducelier (sp?) vs. Lucas From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 18:32:03 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO hiner@mbs.telesys.utexas.edu (Greg Hiner) writes: > I noticed that there are two LR distributors - what is the difference > between the two? I have only ever seen the Lucas distributor on a Land Rover, and the Factory Manual that I have only points to minor variations of little consequence between that on the 2.25l and 6 cylinder engines. Rgds, Dixon -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Jan 31 22:28:01 1994 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: export to Canada (was Glad to be aboard) From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 18:37:36 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO Terry Gilbert writes: > On Fri, 28 Jan 1994, Ian Stuart, R(D)SVS (Tel: 6205) wrote: > > > > > How much does it cost to import a UK vehicle into Canada? Beyond the actual price of the vehicle, our quote is about a thousand dollars per vehicle, with two required to fit inside a container. > Vehicles must be more than 15 years old in order to avoid having to meet > emission and safety requirements set by the Canadian governments. Lots of > paperwork involved. So that precludes the newer models. This is the only important restriction. Meet this one, and a bunch of paperwork and you can bring any Land Rover, 101FC, etc into Canada. > As for Land Rover availability in Canada; for the most part, enthusiasts > are working on what remains of vehicles sold there up until 1972, when > sales stopped. Range Rovers are available, at a horrendous price new, and > with limited used stuff on the market. There are still an awful lot of these around, concentrated in Ontario/Quebec and British Columbia. Of the supposed 16,000 imported into Canada, looking at how common they are in the USA, I'd say most came here rather than there. > For a while the British military was a good source of vehicles and parts > in western Canada. The wide open spaces of Alberta are used as training > areas for many NATO forces. The British forces brought their own Land > Rovers over for the exercises. One friend has photos of rank upon rank of > Lightweights being auctioned off. That supply has now dried up, because > of the previously-mentioned government legislation. Now all that appears > are donor vehicles, most of which have been run over by 40-ton main > battle tanks, flipped over, or otherwise rendered inoperable. About ten came into Ottawa in the last sale that they had. The reason behind the cessation of the sale is well known here in Ottawa and is better left undiscussed. Frames etc. are still available and go to auction on a regular basis. Unfortunately, for the individual, the sales are in large lots, but contacts with some of the salvage yards in Alberta can result in a frame. > I fear I may have waited too long before making the move to get a Land > Rover, but I'll keep looking. If you want a Land ROver to completely restore, ie the frame just isn't there and condition is "poor", you could have one in a couple of days if you really want. Better condition LRs require a bit more time to locate. > How would I get two vehicles back to Canada? The thought of > driving 3,000 miles (4,500 kilometres) in a Landy, towing another vehicle > was a little too much for me to comprehend. Although I know it's not the > most arduous project ever undertaken by a Land Rover or its owner. Drive it up and over the border. You have to pre-clear it through US Customs when you leave the country with it, clear it into Canada (an expensive formality, GST being in effect) but rather painless. Rgds, Dixon -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Jan 31 22:27:53 1994 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Land Rover sold!? From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 19:05:55 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO Mike McDermott just phoned to say that Land Pover has been sold to BMW. They will one about 80% of Rover Group, with Honda owning the balance. Apparently it was presented as a fait acomplis. Time to put the flag at half mast... Rgds, Dixon -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Jan 31 18:29:49 1994 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 94 16:29:21 PST From: Bruce Harding To: lro@stratus.com Subject: dragginh clutch Status: RO > Greg, > I have the identical problem with my 70 series IIA. I've rebuilt the > slave cylinder, replaced the slave cylinder, bleed the sucker many > times, rebuilt the master cylinder, put new flex hose and new pipe > leading to the slave but the same problem presists. I currently have > it at the local LR guru's shop. He thinks the problem lies in the > pressure plate and will be removing the clutch this week. > Bruce_Harding@ccm.hf.intel.com > >>Let me know what happens - as I said I just had the clutch off and >>everything looked okay - I did replace the flex clutch line but everything >>else I left the same. I do think that the clutch master may be getting a >>little worn - but the funny thing is that it drags after the wet days. I >>never had the problem in a drier climate. It seems to me that something >>must be sticking to something else. I do have a newer diaphragm style >>clutch - and you?? Oh yes - and I too have a 70 IIa. >>Greg Hiner I had a few people reply that they had a similar problem so I thought I'd reply to Greg through the NET. The problem on my LR turn out to be a sheared pin in the the rod that moves the clutch withdrawl mechanism. He said that he has seen this happen before but usually the clutch stops working completely. The pin is located right next to the transmission near where the slave cylinder attaches to the arm that moves the ROD. Clutch works great now. Bruce_Harding@ccm.hf.intel.com From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Jan 31 18:48:05 1994 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 94 19:46:14 -0500 From: "Russell G. Dushin" Apparently-To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Status: RO Ian wrote: >4) Spray the screws holding the drum housing with loosening fluid and undo. The screws may have gunk in the slots, so angle the the screw-driver so that the blade can be used to gouge the dirt out of the slot and wack the handle of the screw-driver with the hammer -- this should clear out the dirt. If the slot is clear and the screw still won't turn, place the blade of the screw-driver into the slot of the screw, and as far the the left as it will go. Tilt the screw-driver 'out' (away from the axle-line) and again, wack the back of the screw-driver. This should force the screw to turn. 5) Remove the brake drum from the wheel bearings. They are probably jammed in place by rust, dust and gunk, so hammer (hard!) between the wheel studs to shake the drum loose of the gunk, and then pull the drum off. [Tip. If you thread the wheel nuts onto the studs, you can protect the top of the studs from misplaced hammer-blows.] If you can, clean the area with compressed air. as for 4) use an impact driver, if ya got one. and for 5) each drum has a threaded hole (or two, or three??) that has threads that are the same size as the bolts holding the drive flange on the hubs.....IF you are fortunate enough to still have clean threads there (a relative term), threading one drive flange bolt into there and giving it a good twist (not good enough to strip it) you stand a good chance of loosening the drum enough to remove it by hand......this has worked for me (when a heavy hammer didn't). as for reassembly, I usually put BOTH springs on the shoes, in their proper orientation, place one shoe in position, and lever (screwdriver placed on an appropriate spot) the other into position. You do need to be careful not to f-up the slots on the wheel cylinder pistons, and yes, it helps to have no fluid pressure in dem brakes......this method avoids having to get a tight spring into a tiny hole using pliers or whatever ya got-a method that invariably leaves me with bleeding knuckles. rd/nige From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Jan 31 18:58:39 1994 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 94 19:57:36 -0500 From: "Russell G. Dushin" Apparently-To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Status: RO fug. must be time to drive nigel over my beemer, repeat in reverse, forward, reverse, forward, and send the remains to berlin. mike-tell those blokes on the airstrip to warm a spitfire up for me, too. rd nige and a piece o' shit 318 that can only run on dry pavement. From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Feb 1 02:27:56 1994 Via: uk.ac.edinburgh.castle; Tue, 1 Feb 1994 08:25:12 +0000 To: lro@stratus.com From: "Ian Stuart, R(D)SVS (Tel: 6205)" Organization: Vet-lab,The Univ of Edinburgh Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 08:24:46 GMT Subject: Re: Keep Land Rover British Priority: normal Status: RO > I'll be damned if I'll go round with a silly round badge stuck on > my rad. Who can make BMW badges with big red stripes through them? > The newscast I heard it on made a significant comment when the > newsman asked the specialist correspondent whether this meant the > possibility of greater investment in Land Rover.His answer was that, > yes,*everyone* wants Land Rover,its a "smashing company". Remember -- BMW do luxury cars, and have no 4WD. The landy will stay (much) the same, but the poor Range Rover will be warped out of all recognition!!!! ----** Ian Stuart +44 31 650 6205 Royal (Dick) School of Veterinary Studies, Edinburgh University. #=========================================================================# Land Rover: A *BRITISH* car that was meant to survive the charge of a adult bull rhino and be field-stripped in the jungle with essentially a screwdriver and a crescent wrench. From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Feb 1 03:35:28 1994 From: Steve Methley Subject: Re: Fitting Brake shoes to Drum brakes -- the whole experience. (rfc (fwd) To: land-rover-owner@transfer.stratus.com (landy list) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 94 9:41:30 GMT Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Status: RO Ian says: > Please comment, refine and ammend 'till it's right. > Caring for your Aluminim Friend, Chapter x > (removing & replacing brake shoes) ..... >4) Spray the screws holding the drum housing with loosening fluid.. >..screw-driver 'out' (away from the axle-line) and again, wack the back >of the screw-driver. This should force the screw to turn. Or use an impact driver - this is an ideal application. > 5) Remove the brake drum from the wheel bearings. They are probably > jammed in place by rust, dust and gunk, so hammer (hard!) between the wheel > studs to shake the drum loose of the gunk, and then pull the drum off. ... The brake drum is a cast component. You really don't want to hit it with a hammer - drum fracture later at speed could be spectacularly messy. Let time and a _good releasing fluid_ (not WD40) have a go first. > any comments? Thanks for the account, I'll leave others to comment further. Best Regards, Steve. '79 Rangey, ex SIII Lightweight. -- ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Best Regards, Steve. Dr Steve Methley ***** ***** HP Labs, Filton Road, *** /_ __ *** email: sgm@hplb.hpl.hp.com Bristol, BS12 6QZ, UK ** / / /_/ ** or sgm@hpl.hp.co.uk direct line: +44 272 228751 *** / *** fax: +44 272 228924 switchboard: +44 272 799910 ***** ***** or 228920 ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Feb 1 05:04:22 1994 From: marcus@dcs.qmw.ac.uk Subject: Re: Land Rover bibles? To: tgilbert@husc.harvard.edu (Terry Gilbert) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 10:19:36 +0000 (GMT) Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com In-Reply-To: from "Terry Gilbert" at Jan 30, 94 09:00:14 pm Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1995 Status: RO > This time around I'd like some recommendations on what reference > books/manuals to get on the Land Rover. I've been eyeing Lindsay Porter's > "Guide to Purchase and DIY Restoration" as a good first choice. I can't > seem to find it here in Boston, so the best deal I've seen is that > offered by Birmingham LR Services (Bat Fastard) in LRO International > (13.95 Pounds Sterling, less 14.9% for overseas customers). Can anyone > recommend a better deal from anyone else. > > And what else is out there that is a "must-have"? Thanks in advance for > your responses. > Please note that the 14.9% off that you quote does *not* apply to books. This is because VAT (UK sales tax) is zero-rated for books and is therefore not included in the price in the first place. (Afterthought: why do suppliers almost always say 'take 14.9% off'? It's more accurate to say 'divide by 1.175', since the VAT rate is 17.5%. Gripe mode off.) However, #13.95 is still the best price you will get and the book is an excellent complement to the various manuals. As for 'must have': get the factory manuals. For the II/IIA they cost approximately #25 each (part 1 - Engine, clutch and gearbox; part 2 - everything else) plus #30 for the parts catalogue. #20 buys you the single-part series III manual and #23 the III's parts catalogue, all available from the LRO bookshop. I know this sounds like a fortune, but it is worth it in the long run. The only other manuals I would recommend are the Haynes and Autobooks versions, both available from Brooklands Books and possibly the LRO bookshop. These are both based on the factory manuals but there are annoying variations in the procedures for various operations - these do not actually cause problems, but one is sometimes in doubt as to which one to follow. I tend to use the Haynes for 'side of the road' jobs, and do everything else from the factory manuals. Sorry all the prices are in pounds, but I hope this helps. Marcus. From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Feb 1 04:26:02 1994 From: Mike Rooth Subject: Removing Brake Drums To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 94 10:22:55 GMT Status: RO Whatever anyone says,mine *always* get a thumping to get them off,but I use a copper hammer.My drums also have "forcing holes" in them(good old steam engine practice).These are tapped holes into which you can screw a bolt,and force the drum off,or at least start it on its journey.The holes,needless to say,have no corresponding holes in the hub. A word of warning.A colleague bought a pair of new,non-genuine drums for his wife's S111 88",and found that instead of the three attachment screw holes,they had only one,the drum being effectively secured after that by the wheel.The possibility of these drums being secured to run truly is almost nil.The likelihood of anyone else buying such drums is remote,but I thought still worth the mention. Cheers Mike Rooth (Still mightily pissed off) From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Feb 1 06:15:00 1994 Subject: Re: Keep Land Rover British To: IAN@lab0.vet.edinburgh.ac.uk (Ian Stuart R) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 10:49:57 +0000 (GMT) From: Richard Jones Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com In-Reply-To: from "Ian Stuart, R" at Feb 1, 94 08:24:46 am Organization: Apricot Computers Limited Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1380 Status: RO Ian Stuart, R writes: > > > I'll be damned if I'll go round with a silly round badge stuck on > > my rad. > Who can make BMW badges with big red stripes through them? > > > The newscast I heard it on made a significant comment when the > > newsman asked the specialist correspondent whether this meant the > > possibility of greater investment in Land Rover.His answer was that, > > yes,*everyone* wants Land Rover,its a "smashing company". > Remember -- BMW do luxury cars, and have no 4WD. The landy will stay > (much) the same, but the poor Range Rover will be warped out of all > recognition!!!! As I understand it BMW have wanted to get into the small car market and the offroad/SUV market, but couldn't afford to do either from scratch. What better way to achieve this than buy the offroad market leaders, particularly if you get a range of small cars thrown in for free :-) A question springs to mind - will Honda just take the money and run (they own about 20% of Rover), or will they stick around and design a few BMW's? -- _ __ Apricot Computer Limited Tel: (+44) 21 717 7171 ' ) ) / 3500 Parkside Fax: (+44) 21 717 0123 /--' o _. /_ Birmingham Business Park / \_<_(__/ <_ BIRMINGHAM B37 7YS Email: richardj@apricot.co.uk Richard Jones United Kingdom ..!uknet!apricot!richardj From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Feb 1 05:08:49 1994 X-Authentication-Warning: tornadic.sw.stratus.com: Host localhost.stratus.com didn't use HELO protocol To: "Ian Stuart, R(D)SVS (Tel: 6205)" Cc: lro@stratus.com Subject: Re: Keep Land Rover British In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 01 Feb 94 08:24:46 GMT." Date: Tue, 01 Feb 94 06:07:42 -0500 From: William Caloccia Status: RO Well, it's all over the front pages here (last night and this AM), The Germans (who have this whole social/political/union life, that almost holds them back) have given assurances that they'll not move manufacturing out of the U.K. at the expens of jobs. The LR/RR works is one of the most profitable small volume (74,000 unit) car manufacturers in Europe, and is clearly the prize of the deal. As it turns out Honda still owns the other 20% of Rover, and BMW says that they don't plan on undoing those agreements. The Independent states that Honda was offered the other 80% share, but only wanted up to 50%, and turned down the offer. (so get one of those H badges with a slash through it !!!) BMW will gain a complete line of vehicles, including the low end rovers cars (nee Hondas and Honda decendants) and reportedly is interested in reviving the lower volume prestige/sport marques of the Rover clan (TR, Austin Healy & Rielys), and promises to spend at least #250M/year on improvments. Cost was #800M, and BMW will assume another #900M in Rover debt that BAe has accrued over the years. Rover made $56M on a gross of #4.6bn in 1989 The deal stil requires shareholder & EC approvals. - Bill caloccia@stratus.com Temporarily at (at least through 4 Feb): Stratus Computer Ltd Hounslow, Middlesex, UK tele: 081 570 4433 fax: 081 569 4755 From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Feb 1 09:08:06 1994 Via: uk.ac.edinburgh.castle; Tue, 1 Feb 1994 14:18:33 +0000 To: lro@transfer.stratus.com From: "Ian Stuart, R(D)SVS (Tel: 6205)" Organization: Vet-lab,The Univ of Edinburgh Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 14:17:54 GMT Subject: Re: Keep Land Rover British Priority: normal Status: RO > >> > I'll be damned if I'll go round with a silly round badge stuck on > >> > my rad. > >> Who can make BMW badges with big red stripes through them? > > I am getting one next time I pass a BMW dealer. Goes on upside down..... > > Be interesting (depressing?) to see what happens to the keep-it-the-same > policy of Landrovers. Who wants to bet on new models every few years, > monocoque construction in pressed tin, spares discontinued after 10 years etc, > etc? > > Still, be nice to be able to get an electric tinted sunroof and velour seats > for my 90 van. Rust, depreciation, expensive parts -- ain't life wonderful. ----** Ian Stuart +44 31 650 6205 Royal (Dick) School of Veterinary Studies, Edinburgh University. #=========================================================================# Land Rover: A *BRITISH* car that was meant to survive the charge of a adult bull rhino and be field-stripped in the jungle with essentially a screwdriver and a crescent wrench. From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Feb 1 09:44:12 1994 From: Mike Rooth Subject: Re: Keep Land Rover British To: rich@amethyst.apricot.co.uk (Richard Jones) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 94 15:37:50 GMT Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com In-Reply-To: <9402011049.aa00895@amethyst.apricot.co.uk>; from "Richard Jones" at Feb 1, 94 10:49 am Status: RO Fine,I grant you that it makes sense for BMW to buy the off-road market leaders,rather than try to get there on their own. But who but the biggest fools in the universe would be so stupid as to SELL them the market leaders?Three guesses.First prize one BMW,second two BMWs......... Mike Rooth From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Feb 1 11:12:57 1994 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 94 09:04:43 -0800 From: "TeriAnn Wakeman" Reply-To: "TeriAnn Wakeman" To: Bruce_Harding@ccm.hf.intel.com, lro@stratus.com Subject: Re: dragginh clutch Status: RO In message <940131162921_8@ccm.hf.intel.com> Bruce Harding writes: > > Greg, > > I have the identical problem with my 70 series IIA. I've rebuilt the > > slave cylinder, replaced the slave cylinder, bleed the sucker many > > times, rebuilt the master cylinder, put new flex hose and new pipe > > leading to the slave but the same problem presists. I currently have > > it at the local LR guru's shop. He thinks the problem lies in the > > pressure plate and will be removing the clutch this week. > > Bruce_Harding@ccm.hf.intel.com > > > >>Let me know what happens - as I said I just had the clutch off and > >>everything looked okay - I did replace the flex clutch line but everything > >>else I left the same. I do think that the clutch master may be getting a > >>little worn - but the funny thing is that it drags after the wet days. I > >>never had the problem in a drier climate. It seems to me that something > >>must be sticking to something else. I do have a newer diaphragm style > >>clutch - and you?? Oh yes - and I too have a 70 IIa. > > >>Greg Hiner > > > I had a few people reply that they had a similar problem so I thought I'd > reply to Greg through the NET. The problem on my LR turn out to be a > sheared pin in the the rod that moves the clutch withdrawl mechanism. He > said that he has seen this happen before but usually the clutch stops > working completely. The pin is located right next to the transmission > near where the slave cylinder attaches to the arm that moves the ROD. > Clutch works great now. > > Bruce_Harding@ccm.hf.intel.com > An overlooked cause for a draging clutch and or brakes that after adjustment are still near the floor are elongated holes where one metal moving part joins another. The holes at the top of my TR3 clutch & brake peddels where the master cylinder pushrods attach were elongated nearly 100%. This ment I needed to push the peddels at least an inch before the linkage started to work. The cure is to weld up the hole and redrill it. TeriAnn TeriAnn Wakeman One of these days, I'll be old enough that twakeman@apple.com people will stop calling me crazy and start LINK: TWAKEMAN calling me eccentric. 408-974-2344 TR3A - TS75519L, MGBGT - GHD4U149572G, 109 - 164000561 From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Feb 1 11:39:53 1994 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 94 09:28:40 -0800 From: "TeriAnn Wakeman" Reply-To: "TeriAnn Wakeman" To: IAN@lab0.vet.edinburgh.ac.uk, lro@stratus.com Subject: Re: Keep Land Rover British Status: RO In message "Ian Stuart, R(D)SVS (Tel: 6205)" writes: body of message removed > ----** Ian Stuart +44 31 650 6205 > Royal (Dick) School of Veterinary Studies, Edinburgh University. > #=========================================================================# > Land Rover: A *BRITISH* car " "that was meant to survive the charge of a adult > bull rhino and be field-stripped in the jungle with essentially a > screwdriverand a crescent wrench." Ian, Do you know where this saying came from? It is one I thought I made up years ago and probably mentioned off and on in postings since '87. Could be I heard it or read it before & forgot the source. But it would have to be at least from 1980. i have been using that phrease since at least then and it has been seen by most anyone on the Land Rover and British car mail list. Just wondering. This reminds me of a short artical I wrote on installing webbing on the TR3 hood sticks. I had an accompanying drawing showing diminsions and refered to it in the artical. I wrote it for the Triumph Travelers Sports Car Club newsletter about 6 or 7 years ago. And over the years I have seen the artical reprinted in several club newsleters and one national club news letter almost all minus the drawing. Each source credited the source they lifted it from and my name as the author disappeared long ago. Not that it maters, I just wish they could have copied the drawing so the artical could have really helped people reweb their sticks. Take care, TeriAnn TeriAnn Wakeman One of these days, I'll be old enough that twakeman@apple.com people will stop calling me crazy and start LINK: TWAKEMAN calling me eccentric. 408-974-2344 TR3A - TS75519L, MGBGT - GHD4U149572G, 109 - 164000561 From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Feb 1 11:48:48 1994 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 11:40:00 -0600 To: lro@transfer.stratus.com From: hiner@mbs.telesys.utexas.edu (Greg Hiner) Subject: Dieseling - on gas that is Status: RO What are the cures for an engine that has fits of dieseling - ie running on erratically a few seconds after the ignition is turned off. I have heard that turning down the idle is one method but I can't go much lower than it is now. Is the carb running too rich? I have checked this and the timing many times - but they seem correct. Any ideas? Best - Greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greg Hiner (512) 471-7277 Computer Support hiner@mbs.telesys.utexas.edu Garrison Hall University of Texas at Austin From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Feb 1 13:48:47 1994 From: "Russell G. Dushin" Subject: Re: your mail To: M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk (Mike Rooth) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 94 14:38:28 EST Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com In-Reply-To: <9402011026.AA19410@hpc.lut.ac.uk>; from "Mike Rooth" at Feb 1, 94 10:26 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.36.1.1] Status: RO > > Russell, > Since its a joint op,I've ordered a Mosquito,fully bombed up, > With an F4U1 Corsair for you to fly top cover.How's that? > Mike > > I am sure we can muster up enough volunteers to fly a force of B-1's while we are at it! C'mon Men (and Women)! rd From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Feb 1 14:22:20 1994 >From: Benjamin Smith To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Re: Keeping Land Rover *BRITISH* Reply-To: ranger@ugcs.caltech.edu Date: Tue, 01 Feb 1994 12:17:25 -0800 From: Ben Smith Status: RO So after being the first one to post a possible BMW buy of LR, the LA Times ran the article today. Even the LA times was saying there goes the last of the large British auto makers. The article mentioned how pissed Honda was and that the Rover group took a 13.? million loss last year, but expected a reboud this year. The only heartening thing in the article was that the deal still has to be approved by the British Aerospace stockholders and the British Government. So there is a slim chance that the $1.2 billion deal won't go through. If the deal does go through, the furture may be grim. 10 years from now I can see people saying that the Land Rover was a great car, but the only good new 4x4s are Hummers and Land Cruisers. Sigh... Where's the Spitfire squadron forming up? -Benjamin Smith ranger@ugcs.caltech.edu 1972 Land Rover Series III 88 From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Feb 1 14:58:24 1994 From: leefi@microsoft.com To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: BMW Date: Tue, 01 Feb 94 12:45:22 Status: RO so, any suggestions for good license plate frame sayings? The Best BMW By Far My Other Car is NOT Beamer The Ugliest BMW i'm sure folks can come up with ones better than i have... suggestions? From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Feb 1 14:55:41 1994 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 94 13:44:39 MST From: rhcaldw@nma.mnet.uswest.com ( ROY CALDWELL ) To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: BMW Status: RO Hey, for my money there is nothing like a good Cav outfit. So give me an M1-A1HA with a full combat load of 120MM smooth bore main rounds and a Master Gunner on board. Plus it can do 70 on the autobaun. Let's see if a BMW can out run a sabot main round. Gawd! Has the Empire really let the sun set on it? Roy-Montana, Big Sky Country-Topside Up Over From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Feb 1 16:25:28 1994 To: mlist-lro@nntp-server.caltech.edu From: rsrose@cco.caltech.edu (Randolph Rose) Newsgroups: mlist.lro Subject: Re: Dieseling - on gas that is Date: 1 Feb 1994 22:17:57 GMT Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena Status: RO In article <199402011741.LAA01615@mbs.telesys.utexas.edu>, Greg Hiner wrote: >What are the cures for an engine that has fits of dieseling - ie running on >erratically a few seconds after the ignition is turned off. I have heard >that turning down the idle is one method but I can't go much lower than it >is now. Is the carb running too rich? I have checked this and the timing >many times - but they seem correct. Any ideas? > >Best - Greg > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Greg Hiner (512) 471-7277 >Computer Support hiner@mbs.telesys.utexas.edu >Garrison Hall >University of Texas at Austin > > I've always chalked this up to the blend of gasoline available now. My present Land-Rover, with a 2.25 Series II engine, has been up and running for two years now, and has always had this problem to some extent. Before then, my last Land-Rover went off the road in 1985, so it had been 7 years without driving the 2.25 engine. Up until '85, I didn't have many problems with after-running (I'd say I looked after about 50+ Rovers then). I don't think it's timing, because I used to time by ear and didn't have this problem. Living in Los Angeles, I've attributed run-on to a change to an emissions blend in the years that I didn't run a Land-Rover. Another culprit could be bad carbon build up, which means removing the head to clean it. I do know that when I ran without a thermostat (finding a Series II thermostat is another story!) that my after-run went away, and returned with the new thermostat. Good luck! Let me know if you find a(the) solution. Randy From ccernest Mon Jan 31 07:53:33 1994 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 07:49:05 -0600 (CST) From: Subject: Gopher LULU To: ccray@lulu.cc.missouri.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO Please look at the last paragraph associated with MAN PAGES (it needs to be deleted or vastly modified). --> 3. HOWTO --> 6. MAN PAGES --> 1. MAN PAGES (last paragraph) Thanks, Ernest PS - the PINE document looks good. Have you been in contact with Dave Martin about getting all email addresses in the Pine directory? From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Feb 1 19:54:10 1994 From: POLSTAB@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu Date: Tue, 01 Feb 94 19:36:28 CST To: IAN@lab0.vet.edinburgh.ac.uk Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Re: Keep Land Rover British In-Reply-To: IAN@lab0.vet.edinburgh.ac.uk -- Tue, 1 Feb 1994 14:17:54 GMT Status: RO What is really strange is the British car that evolved straight out of WWII ends up being purchased by a German company. The WSJ mentioned today that BMW was pleased. " 'This is different from a normal takeover,' a triumphant Chairman Bernd Pitschetsrieder said during a Lonfon news conference..." To the business community, it's just a smart move of one firm getting market position. But it's the war.... the Germans just didn't need an army this time. So, ya'll, forget the Spitfires. Rovers are for infantry. Ask a friend w/ a BMW to follow you for a little drive... Pick a nice road, or no road at all. cheers thad brown '71 88" - The Blue Beast From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Feb 2 03:09:01 1994 To: lro@stratus.com From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andy Woodward) Subject: Re: Rumour...... Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 09:06:45 Cc: azw@aber.ac.uk Status: RO >> I work with a guy in the California National Guard and he think the >> hummer is one of the best 4x4s ever built. So it is unclear if there were >> any limitatations. >Too big, too heavy I had heard. Never seen one so cant really comment though. They looked very impressive in the news shots of the Golf War (Folk take sport so seriously nowadays). But Top Gear (An awful yuppie car program over here) tried one out and immediately got it stuck on a 20degree sand incline. A Discovery sneered by effortlessy. I reckon I could have got my old 2wd up it! I guess the 3 1/2 tons really snarfs em up on soft going - I thought the 90 was too heavy....... But Unimogs are nigh on unstoppable. So, what's the answer? From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Feb 2 07:06:58 1994 To: lro@stratus.com From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andy Woodward) Subject: Re: Rumour...... Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 12:11:20 Cc: azw@aber.ac.uk Status: RO >didnt appear to be an awful lot of clearance between the diff >and ground.So when travelling over rutted ground,with the front I thought they had portal axles like the Unimog and HUGE ground clearance? But I've not looked closely, it's just an impression gained from piccies on the telly. From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Feb 2 01:33:36 1994 To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Re:Rumour,Rumour,Rumour Reply-To: ranger@ugcs.caltech.edu Date: Tue, 01 Feb 1994 23:29:54 -0800 From: Ben Smith Status: RO Note: I spazed and repled this straight to Daryl and not to the the mailing list. So now I'm posting it to the list..... In message <9402020423.AA23136@sun1> Daryl Webb writes: > The story goes that duing the Desert Storm campaign and other NATO exercises > the US army became aware of limitations in its current vehicle fleet. They > were supposed to have been impressed by the performance of your friend and > mine the Land Rover Defender. I work with a guy in the California National Guard and he think the hummer is one of the best 4x4s ever built. So it is unclear if there were any limitatations. > As a result of this the US Army is contemplating a modified Defender series > for their use. (Even rumoured to be interested in the Australian built 6x6 > "perentje" type vehicles - and the local 4x4 long range reconnaissance > vehicles) I know that the 75th Infantry Regiment (Rangers) got some Defender 110s from the Land Rover Special Operations Vehicles Division. This was reported in Rover's North Newsletter of Summer 1992. A similar article appreared in Land Rover Owner in the June 1992 edition (pp 8-9). The LRO hints of a US destination for the vehicles (LR asked them not to spill the beans). "I first learned of the requirements of this Special Operations Vehicle as the Gulf War ended..." (LRO, p.9). The Vehicle has roll bars, weapons ring, no top or windshield and the 2.5 diesel TDi engine. This may be where your rumer came from. -Benjamin Smith ranger@ugcs.caltech.edu 1972 Series III 88 Land Rover From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Feb 2 02:09:27 1994 Via: uk.ac.edinburgh.castle; Wed, 2 Feb 1994 08:05:50 +0000 To: lro@transfer.stratus.com From: "Ian Stuart, R(D)SVS (Tel: 6205)" Organization: Vet-lab,The Univ of Edinburgh Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 08:05:21 GMT Subject: Re: BMW Priority: normal Status: RO > From: leefi@microsoft.com > To: lro@transfer.stratus.com > Subject: BMW > Date: Tue, 01 Feb 94 12:45:22 > so, any suggestions for good license plate frame sayings? > > The Best BMW By Far > My Other Car is NOT Beamer > The Ugliest BMW > > i'm sure folks can come up with ones better than i have... suggestions? > > British Made Workhorse ----** Ian Stuart +44 31 650 6205 Royal (Dick) School of Veterinary Studies, Edinburgh University. #=========================================================================# "Land Rover: A *BRITISH* car that was meant to survive the charge of a adult bull rhino and be field-stripped in the jungle with essentially a screwdriver and a crescent wrench." -- TeriAnn From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Feb 2 03:22:26 1994 From: Mike Rooth Subject: Re: Rumour, Rumour, Rumour To: daryl@menzies.su.edu.au (Daryl Webb) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 94 9:19:07 GMT Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com In-Reply-To: <9402020423.AA23136@sun1>; from "Daryl Webb" at Feb 2, 94 1:52 pm Status: RO Hi Daryl, There was a photo article featuring these SVO defenders in the LRO, pssibly following the note Ben mentioned.The weapons fit wasnt English and the most Bob Morrison would say was that the vehicles were LHD, with speedo's calibrated in MPH.The rest was left as an excercise for the reader!I seem to remember some of Dixon's mob came across some US Army folk,who wouldt admit to the existance of these machines. But you'd be better asking him,really. Cheers Mike Rooth From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Feb 2 04:18:58 1994 X-Authentication-Warning: tornadic.sw.stratus.com: Host localhost.stratus.com didn't use HELO protocol To: "Ian Stuart, R(D)SVS (Tel: 6205)" Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Re: BMW := British Motor Works In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 02 Feb 94 08:05:21 GMT." Date: Wed, 02 Feb 94 05:17:48 -0500 From: William Caloccia Status: RO > The Best BMW By Far > My Other Car is NOT Beamer > The Ugliest BMW British Made Workhorse From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Feb 2 04:24:22 1994 To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Re: Rumour, Rumour, Rumour In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 02 Feb 1994 09:19:07 GMT." <9402020919.AA04988@hpc.lut.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 02 Feb 1994 02:22:22 -0800 From: Ben Smith Status: RO Mike Rooth writes: >There was a photo article featuring these SVO defenders in the LRO, >pssibly following the note Ben mentioned.The weapons fit wasnt English >and the most Bob Morrison would say was that the vehicles were LHD, >with speedo's calibrated in MPH.The rest was left as an excercise for >the reader!I seem to remember some of Dixon's mob came across some >US Army folk,who wouldt admit to the existance of these machines. >But you'd be better asking him,really. Yup, this was the article that I was talking about. The article in the Rover's North Newsletter used one of the two pictures that LRO used in their article. RN's article said (on page 8): "This highly modified 110 weapons platform is now in service with our own Army Rangers. Powered by Land Rover's 2.5 litre diesel TDI, it is fitted with a warn winchm heavy duty brush bar and a long range fuel tank. The U.S. military has a history of using Land Rovers in specialist roles." Here's the article I referred to from LRO June 1992, page 9 (two pictures on page 8) by Bob Morrison... "REGULAR reader's will have notices the occasional reference to a new Special Forces vehicle over the last few month's. These photos are the first published other than a few publicity shots in the company's own recent lierature. On Good Friday we were given exclusive access to the Defender SOV at Solihull. I first learned of the requirement for this Special Operations Vehicle as the Gulf War ended, but was asked by Solihull to keep quiet until the contract had been signed and the vehicles dispatched. Even now, Solihull refused to name the end user, discuss the weapons fit or even confirm the engine type. In the world of military sales, client confidentiality rules supreme. I do know the end users however, and hope eventually to get further information from my military contacts in th country of use. As is obvious from the photos, the SOV is based on a 110 minus doors, windscreen, roof, etc., and with rear doorways cut in the sides aft of the bulkhead. The rear body panels are cut down by about 100mm, and the rear compartment is stripped out, but the seat belts in this compartment suggest a third seat under the weapons ring and to more occasional seats to the rear. The front bulkhead is also cut down, to bonnet level, and is substantially stiffened to take the tubular bracing strut for the front weapons platform hoop. The layout of the weapons mount frame is self-evident but note the transverse box section on the rear crossmember. The front bumper has been replaced by a similar box section which carries a Warn winch and heavy duty brush guard - the rectangular frames over the wings may be for jerrycans, but at this stage I'm not too sure. As for the weapons platform between the hoops, which is a moch-up on the photographed vehicle, this is probably Kevlar panel. An in-house photo shows a ring similar in layout and dimensions to that of Hum-Vee (Hummer). It is probably capible of taking TOW, Milan, Bushmaster, ASP, Mk19 Grenade Launcher or similar --Land Rover refuse point blank to comment on weapnos fit on the productinon vehicle. The Demonstrator, which will be on display at Euro-Satory in Paris in June is powered by the 200Tdi engine and my betting is that the production similarly equipped. As for base colour, the demonstrotor is roughly the same sandy shade as used on Operation Granby, but my sources tell tell me that production batch were definatelt not finished in either a desert or temporate skeem. Land Rover has asked that I do not reveal the endf user, so for those of you who haven't twigged from the rest of my past columns here are a couple of clues. 1)although the vehice was left hand drive, the speedometer ia calibrated in mph. 2) Look closesly at the lighting arranagement. What is missing and why? I'm now looking to you guys overseas to confirm the weapons fit and colour. After all, if you could tell me that Land Rover had won the order before they knew it, I'm sure you cn get me a photo." Well there it is, I was board so I typed it in Benjamin Smith ranger@ugcs.caltech.edu Series III 88 Land Rover From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Feb 2 05:01:50 1994 From: Mike Rooth Subject: Another Rumour To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 94 10:58:24 GMT Status: RO Dont know whether anyone else has heard this,but I was told yesterday that Vauxhall (GM) are to fit the Land Rover Tdi in a new diesel model yet to be announced. Mike Rooth From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Feb 2 05:28:14 1994 From: Mike Rooth Subject: Re: Rumour...... To: azw@aberystwyth.ac.uk (Andy Woodward) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 94 11:26:26 GMT Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com In-Reply-To: ; from "Andy Woodward" at Jan 31, 94 9:06 am Status: RO Must admit I didnt realise that Top Gear had tested a Hummer, though I agree with you,Andy,that its a *dreadful* programme. Doesnt prove anything,though,those clowns could get a Challenger Mk11 stuck in Sainsbury's car park! 3 1/2 tons is *very* heavy,though,particularly for sand work.The thing that struck me about the Hummer,in the Coalition Army Motoring Club Bahgdad Rally and Kate Adie Benefit,was that it appeared to have a very wide track *and* independant front suspension.There didnt appear to be an awful lot of clearance between the diff and ground.So when travelling over rutted ground,with the front diff bolted to the chassis (if it is),a wheel rises,the diff doesnt and youre stuck,where with a "beam" axle,the diff will rise as well.Badly explained,I know,but see what I mean? Land Rover tried this years ago,in fact Rob Ivins found one and featured the thing in an LRO article(is there anything Land Rover *havent* tried?)and decided against it.Land Rover,that is not R Ivins. What surprises me,is that the US forces havent made more use of the Jeep Renegade,or a derivative thereof.Seems quite a competant bit of kit to me,although I didnt like the way the front axle UJ's werent enclosed in a swivel housing,but were left spinning in fresh air and clag.At least they were in the two I've examined.That apart,though,seems a tough enough vehicle.Any comments from over there on this one? Cheers Mike Rooth From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Feb 2 07:23:19 1994 From: marcus@dcs.qmw.ac.uk Subject: Re: Installing an Overdrive (for the FAQ, perhaps?) To: brandenberg@gauss.enet.dec.com (I feel a Jackson Pollock coming on) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 13:18:38 +0000 (GMT) Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com In-Reply-To: <9401292352.AA02418@easynet.crl.dec.com> from "I feel a Jackson Pollock coming on" at Jan 29, 94 06:53:20 pm Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1529 Status: RO > Special tools you will need: 2" cutter, 5/16" *Whitworth* open-end > wrench, large punch for removing/tightening the crown nut, drill ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > motor, hacksaw. (Actually, these are pretty typical if you're a > LR owner.) I've not seen the Fairey(Superwinch) instruction leaflet, but if they recommend the use of the above tool they are off their rockers! The crown nut which holds the overdrive clutch-sleeve on the mainshaft (in place of the mainshaft gear) needs to be tightened to a considerable degree of torque, far greater than could be achieved using a punch. I can't remember the figure for certain, but if memory serves, I think it is either 60lbs./ft. or 200lbs./ft. According to L.E.G.S. (Land Rover Engine and Gearbox Specialists) in Owestry, the reason is that if this component is not sufficiently tightened, it will become loose over time, allowing it and the mainshaft to float slightly, with dire consequences for the life-expectency of the rest of the box. It is worth remembering that the clutch-sleeve is a bearing for the overdrive input/output sleeves. For this reason, a special tool exists which is available from V.L. Churchill (official Land Rover tool makers) in Daventry. It is rather expensive (#50+?) and you may well be able to fabricate one yourself. This tool (or suitable substitute) must always be used to secure the mainshaft gear or overdrive clutch-sleeve, regardless of how or why it has been removed. Marcus. From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Feb 1 22:25:07 1994 From: daryl@menzies.su.edu.au (Daryl Webb) Subject: Rumour, Rumour, Rumour To: lro@stratus.com (Land Rover Owners Group) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 94 13:52:10 CST Status: RO Hi all, as this group has shown its crystal ball abilities I'd like comments on a rumour that I heard recently. The story goes that duing the Desert Storm campaign and other NATO exercises the US army became aware of limitations in its current vehicle fleet. They were supposed to have been impressed by the performance of your friend and mine the Land Rover Defender. The gossip continues. As a result of this the US Army is contemplating a modified Defender series for their use. (Even rumoured to be interested in the Australian built 6x6 "perentje" type vehicles - and the local 4x4 long range reconnaissance vehicles) If this goes ahead the vehicle will be built under license in the US by a conglomerate involving Ford, GM, and other US makers. I was even told that this project was one of the reason that BMW was interested in Rover. It all sounds a bit far fetched to me, with lots of political problems. Anybody over there heard anything or is this too good to be true???? Daryl Webb (daryl@menzies.su.edu.au) '82 Land-Rover SIII stage I V8 county wagon _-*_|\ ( 365,000+ K and *nearly* stuffed) / \ "Oil leak officer, What oil leak ?" \_.--._/ Darwin Australia (Kakadu country) "Top end Down-under" v From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Feb 2 00:23:37 1994 From: daryl@menzies.su.edu.au (Daryl Webb) Subject: Re: Rumour...... To: lro@stratus.com (Land Rover Owners Group) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 94 15:50:17 CST Status: RO Ben Smith in reply to my rumour: > I work with a guy in the California National Guard and he think the > hummer is one of the best 4x4s ever built. So it is unclear if there were > any limitatations. Too big, too heavy I had heard. Never seen one so cant really comment though. > I know that the 75th Infantry Regiment (Rangers) got some Defender 110s > from the Land Rover Special Operations Vehicles Division. This was > reported in Rover's North Newsletter of Summer 1992. A similar article > appreared in Land Rover Owner in the June 1992 edition (pp 8-9). The LRO > hints of a US destination for the vehicles (LR asked them not to spill the > beans). "I first learned of the requirements of this Special Operations > Vehicle as the Gulf War ended..." (LRO, p.9). Looks like I might need to consider finding the A$120 or so to subscribe to LRO if I want to keep abreast, damn expensive for a magazine though. > The Vehicle has roll bars, > weapons ring, no top or windshield and the 2.5 diesel TDi engine. Sounds a lot like our Long range reco. vehicles. Add Snorkel, winch, bullbar, split rims etc. and the 3.9L 4DB Isuzu diesel engine, coupled to a strengthened LT95 4sp. g/box-transfer. > This may be where your rumour came from. Looks like it. Daryl Webb (daryl@menzies.su.edu.au) '82 Land-Rover SIII stage I V8 county wagon _-*_|\ ( 365,000+ K and *nearly* stuffed) / \ "Oil leak officer, What oil leak ?" \_.--._/ Darwin Australia (Kakadu country) "Top end Down-under" v From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Feb 2 09:34:25 1994 Date: Wed, 2 Feb 94 10:18:17 EST From: I feel a Jackson Pollock coming on To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Apparently-To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Re: Installing an Overdrive (for the FAQ, perhaps?) Status: RO >I've not seen the Fairey(Superwinch) instruction leaflet, but if they >recommend the use of the above tool they are off their rockers! They do not but Haynes and RN both do. As I found out, the lock washer is the most important thing. My transmission had never been opened as far as I could tell given the exterior build up and the condition of the gasket and crown nut and yet the latter was only finger tight with the lock washer tab the only thing holding it in. Also, the design of the washer is such that you probably are not going to get specified torque (100 ft/lbs) *and* engagement of a tab in the crown nut. And of the two I can say with certainty that the most important is the lock washer. It will probably float several thousandths in time but that is all. If I'd gone for torque and not the locking tab, I'd have a hell of a lot more. I'd have bought and used the tool but it just isn't available here so I went with the Haynes and RN recommendation. monty From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Feb 2 09:33:52 1994 Date: 02 Feb 1994 08:25:41 -0700 From: Paul Anderson To: Land Rover Mailing List Subject: My Range Rover became BMW last year Status: RO Last year my Range Rover's coolant level sensor went bad. When I went to replace it, my friendly parts guy told me that the same part is used in BMW's. The dealership uses them when the Rover ones are unavailable. The BMW part costs 1/3 that of the Rover one. Guess which one I bought? So since last summer, my Range Rover has been part BMW. Now the rest of you are just catching up...... :-) *============================================================================* * * __________ * * Paul Anderson * / \___ Exceptional Vehicles * * ACUS05@WACCVM.CORP.MOT.COM * |__Range_Rover__| are for * * * (_) (_) Exceptional People| * *============================================================================* From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Feb 2 09:39:28 1994 Date: Wed, 2 Feb 94 08:32:53 MST From: rhcaldw@nma.mnet.uswest.com ( ROY CALDWELL ) To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Hummer Status: RO I will add what I can to the conversation regarding special vehicles in use by the US Army and the Hummer. The Army has constantly bought and tested vehicles for special uses. The one most familiar to people is their use of VW powered dunebuggies for scout work. For some reason the full deployment of the buggy never happened. On one of my annual training exercises at Yalima Proving Grounds in Washington state, I saw hundreds of the buggies being trialed. The buggies still survives in the inventory but is used generally by Special Forces A teams. They used them in Saudi for deep recon on Iraqi scud sites. I have seen the 110 Rover weapons platform in official Army publications as being in service with certain Ranger units. >From the way the PR was written it sounded like a trial, not a full blown purchase. As to it being considered as a replacement for the Hummer, I don't think so. I was in the Gulf as an Army photojournalist. The common maxim anong the troops was, If a hummer got stuck, it was driver error. I drove them a fair bit while in the desert and agree with that statement. I was the passenger in one when the driver took it up one of the few terrain features around, the grade was loose scree and sand over a volcanic base. My estimate of the grade was that it was at least 45%. There was a bit of wheel spin but not much and when we stopped on the top I realized that he had gone up it in high range 4X4. Grante the vehicle was unloaded. But impressive anyway. One night I had to drive a media guy over to a headquaters and we had to use blackout conditions. It was darker than the bottom of a well and so I couldn't really see shit. Needless to say I couldn't avoid any sand pits or anything. The only way I could tell I had hit deep sand was by the sound of the engine and how the vehicle felt. I didn't get stuck. With that said, I still don't like them. They are an open country vehicle, don't carry a spare and are not very driver maintainable. Plus they are too damm wide. Well anyway that's my experience for what it's worth. Roy-Montana, The Big Sky Country-Topside Up Over Still wanting to puke on the next BMW I see. From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Feb 2 20:39:15 1994 Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 21:23:59 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Subject: "109" wanted To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Cc: Mark Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO I am in the market for a 109. I am willing to pay a fair price based on the vehicle condition. I am located near Princeton NJ (USA) Thank you From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Feb 3 01:01:22 1994 From: ranger@ugcs.caltech.edu To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Hummer Vs LR (Was: Re: Rumour...... ) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 03 Feb 94 09:31:49 PST." <9402030316.AA23371@sun1> Date: Wed, 02 Feb 94 22:56:18 PST Status: RO In message <9402030316.AA23371@sun1> you write: > Andy Woodward > > > The "Long Range Patrol Vehicle" used for the desert and other applications > seems to be the "Perentje". A locally built 6x6 110 derivative. These are > constant 4x6 with the rear axle engagable at will. A very high level of > component commonality is maintained with the 4x4 110's. > > Aust army claim 60 deg gradient ability with 42 deg side slope, 150 deg ramp > over. 1000 miles range on primary roads, 800+ on secondary. 300 L main fuel > + 50 L aux. Front and rear machine gun mounts are fitted ane two spares > tyres are recessed into the body work. The Hummer have a lot of ground clearance because they don't have the standard differential to wheel connection. In most cars the drive shaft connects to the center of the wheel. In the Hummer the drive shaft engages a ring gear. So it looks likes this: ____ ____ | | | | | | =====| | ====| | | | | | | | | | | | ---- ---- Standard Hummer Anyway here's some data comaparing the two vehicles. The information is from an article entitled "Trends in Light Transport Vehicle Development" and I found it (actually Dad did and mailed it to me) in _Armada International_ in the January 1990 edition. Land Rover | Hummer 90 110 | M998 M1037 | Troop Carrier Shelter Carrier ============================================================================ Dimensions (Cm) Wheelbase 236 279.4 330 - Length 272.2 463.1 457 493 Width 179 179 216 216 Height 199.3 203.5 175 183/264 Track 149.5 148.5 181 181 Ground Clearance 20 22 40 41 Operating Weight (Kg) Empty 1605-1715 1640-1760 2359 2495 Gross Weight 2400-2550 2950-3050 3493 4536 Payload 920-1036 1486 max 1134 2042 Tow load with/without brakes 4000/500 4000/750 1542/- 1905/- Characteristics Turning Radius(m) 11.7 12.8 14.63 - Angle of Approach/Departure 51/52 50/35 69/45 - Fording Depth(m) - - 0.76 - Max Gradient(%) - - 60 Darryl claims a similar max gradien for the LR. Ben Smith ranger@ugcs.caltech.edu 1972 SIII 88 From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Feb 3 00:04:53 1994 From: daryl@menzies.su.edu.au (Daryl Webb) Subject: Re: Rumour...... To: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andy Woodward) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 94 9:31:49 CST In-Reply-To: ; from "Andy Woodward" at Jan 31, 94 09:06:45 am Sender: daryl@menzies.su.edu.au Status: RO Andy Woodward > I guess the 3 1/2 tons really snarfs em up on soft going - I thought the 90 > was too heavy....... > > But Unimogs are nigh on unstoppable. So, what's the answer? The local Military types have 'Mog's and think they are great, but too big,Too heavy for many applications. The standard "car" is a modified Aust. spec 110, there are lots of varients. The "Long Range Patrol Vehicle" used for the desert and other applications seems to be the "Perentje". A locally built 6x6 110 derivative. These are constant 4x6 with the rear axle engagable at will. A very high level of component commonality is maintained with the 4x4 110's. Aust army claim 60 deg gradient ability with 42 deg side slope, 150 deg ramp over. 1000 miles range on primary roads, 800+ on secondary. 300 L main fuel + 50 L aux. Front and rear machine gun mounts are fitted ane two spares tyres are recessed into the body work. The civilian version is mechanically identical and has found some following with serious outback tour operators and some mining companies. Last year an 1988 6x6 tray-top ute was advertised for about $45K (less than a new Disco) done about 80K miles and looked in great condition. Perhaps someone should buy one to use as a tow truck for BMW's Daryl From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Feb 3 13:17:44 1994 Subject: Re: Rumour...... To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 11:41:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Richard Jones In-Reply-To: <9402021126.AA26078@hpc.lut.ac.uk> from "Mike Rooth" at Feb 2, 94 11:26:26 am Organization: Apricot Computers Limited Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1154 Status: RO Mike Rooth writes: > > Must admit I didnt realise that Top Gear had tested a Hummer, Stuff deleted ... >From what I remember of the program, it wasn't stricktly a Hummer since one of the coachbuilding companies (the company in questions, name escapes me) had been at it - raised the roof, filled it with leather, wood, electronic goodies, messed about with the engine and gearbox to help it cruise down the Middle East equivalent of the Chelsea High Street. Admittedly the Discovery did make the sand dune look easy, but one wonders how much further the Hummer would have got in the hand of the Discovery driver, and following the route the discovery took? But then again given the choice between a Hummer and an auto 3.9 V-8 Discovery - it would be the Hummer that gets left behind. > Cheers > Mike Rooth > -- _ __ Apricot Computer Limited Tel: (+44) 21 717 7171 ' ) ) / 3500 Parkside Fax: (+44) 21 717 0123 /--' o _. /_ Birmingham Business Park / \_<_(__/ <_ BIRMINGHAM B37 7YS Email: richardj@apricot.co.uk Richard Jones United Kingdom ..!uknet!apricot!richardj From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Feb 3 13:17:47 1994 Subject: My Range Rover became BMW last year (fwd) To: lro@transfer.stratus.com (LRO list) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 12:02:21 +0000 (GMT) From: Richard Jones Organization: Apricot Computers Limited Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1172 Status: RO Paul Anderson writes: > > > Last year my Range Rover's coolant level sensor went bad. When I went to > replace it, my friendly parts guy told me that the same part is used in > BMW's. The dealership uses them when the Rover ones are unavailable. > The BMW part costs 1/3 that of the Rover one. Guess which one I bought? > > So since last summer, my Range Rover has been part BMW. Now the rest of > you are just catching up...... :-) Have you one of those nice factory sun roof's fitted to your Range Rover? Guess where they come from ... thats correct its pulled right out of a 7-series BMW, and apparently there a quite a few other bits fitted to the Range Rover from the same source. Not to mention (the rumours), that shortly the BMW 2.5 turbo diesel is to appear in the upmarket end of the Land Rover product line up. -- _ __ Apricot Computer Limited Tel: (+44) 21 717 7171 ' ) ) / 3500 Parkside Fax: (+44) 21 717 0123 /--' o _. /_ Birmingham Business Park / \_<_(__/ <_ BIRMINGHAM B37 7YS Email: richardj@apricot.co.uk Richard Jones United Kingdom ..!uknet!apricot!richardj From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Feb 3 13:17:40 1994 From: Mike Rooth Subject: Rumours/Hummers etc To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 94 15:21:22 GMT Status: RO The current Hummer/Land Rover "comparison" seems to me to ignore a salient fact,namely that the former was,as far as I know,developed as a military vehicle,whereas the Land Rover products were always primarily civilian.The Hummer,it would be logical to suppose,was therefore built with cost as a secondary consideration to performance.With Land Rover products,cost must always be borne well in mind,if only to establish which niche in the market the product is to be aimed at.It is,in my view,one of Land Rover's abiding successes that it has consistantly produced a vehicle which has been pre-eminantly in demand in *both* spheres of activity,despite being introduced as an agricultural aid.Indeed, it is doutful,to say the least,if Land Rover could have survived prodcing solely military vehicles,but I suggest it *could* have done producing only for the civilian market.That is not to say,of course, that military orders were not both welcome,lucrative,and useful in terms of product development.But it must always be remembered that the early Land Rover "saw off" the Austin Champ,a vehicle designed at some trouble and expense for the army.Unfortunatley this machine was designed by a commitee.It is well known that the camel is a horse designed by a commitee! Perhaps the truest of comparisons would be to put the Hummer alongside the performance of a 101" FC Land Rover,which latter *was* specifically designed for military use. I still do not understand,(and if anyone knows,I would be interested) why the US forces ceased using the jeep,or a derivative thereof.I have had the opportunity to "nose" round a couple of Renegades in the last two years,and they seem like a very able little vehicle.Certainly they present a lower profile than the Hummer,and would present a much smaller target as a result.Granted,the carrying capacity isnt there,but given the popularity of the jeep with US forces in bygone years,the apparently universal adoption of the Hummer as a *replacement* is surprising to the uninitiated.Can anyone throw any light on this?I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Hummer was not popular with some sections of the armed forces,because it was not possible to stow them two abreast in one of the transport aircraft types (I cant remember which one), whereas it*was*,apparently possible to so do with jeeps. As for the BMW 2.5 diesel,well,judging by BMW's performance with small..ish marine diesels,or lack of it,I wouldnt personally touch one with a ten foot barge pole.Until BMW get it into their thick teutonic heads that what they produce is really nothing special,ie well marketed average machinery,and start a bit of soul searching,I fear for the well being of Land Rover.After all,IBM had this attitude,"its IBM,so it *must *be all right(and I quote),and look what happened to them.... Cheers Mike Rooth From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Feb 3 13:17:36 1994 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 94 10:15:43 MST From: rhcaldw@nma.mnet.uswest.com ( ROY CALDWELL ) To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Hummer Status: RO Mike, Having driven the Hummer in the desert and most of the other mil vehicles, M-28, Duce 1/2, 5 ton, Dodge Ram and the Blazer and Bronco varients to include the M1A1-HA, this is what I know. By the way the branch that didn't like the hummer was the airforce, the army can never please those guys. The old Jeep-Willies- was just too small for use with a variety of weapons and had a small payload. The replacement was the M-28. It was a disator waiting to happen. It was small and had four corner independent supension that made it prone to roll-over. They had a hard time teaching people to drive it safely. So they started looking for a replacement. My understanding is that it needed to be a universal infantry weapons platform, plus a general support vehicle. I have seen Hummers fitted for almost anything, MP with a top ring mounted M-60, cellsite mounted for commo, ambulance, stinger mounts, you name the weapon and I have seen it mounted. It may be heavy and wide but it can take alot of punishment plus it can be safely driven by even the worst driver. All in all, I still don't like them mostly because of the driver position, they have turned out to be a good vehicle for all army operations. An SF unit stationed near the 3rd ACR in Saudi used them for deep penetration into Iraq looking for scuds. They did the job and I have never heard any complaints from the line soliders about the Hummer. What I have heard is that there aren't enough of them when units go to the field. In Saudi Hummers got misplaced alot. That's about what I can tell you. I have some annual training coming up and maybe I will be able to drive the Hummer some more. Roy From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Feb 3 13:11:15 1994 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 94 09:39:00 PST From: bellas@gamma.tti.com (Bellas) To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Re: Rumours/Hummers etc Status: RO >Granted,the carrying capacity isnt there,but given the >popularity of the jeep with US forces in bygone years,the apparently >universal adoption of the Hummer as a *replacement* is surprising to >the uninitiated.Can anyone throw any light on this? If I recall correctly some of the requirements for the the jeep replacement were o Carry 8 personel or 4 + squad gear o capable of towing med artillery piece o large ground clearance o stable for quick manuvering at medium speeds. All of these were not traits of the current jeep style vehicles. If you are going to do a Hummer vs. Defender compare how about adding the Lambo LM10 to the equation? -Pete- From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Feb 3 13:13:34 1994 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 94 09:46:23 PST From: bellas@gamma.tti.com (Bellas) To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: comparisons Status: RO >Granted,the carrying capacity isnt there,but given the I live out in an area north of LA. We are kind of rural so many Hollywood pictures are shot out here an made to look like elsewhere (it's not uncommon, for example, to see police cars with Alabama or Georga markings only to find them filming down the street). At a recent shoot there were a pair of vehicles that caught my attention so I stopped. One was a custom Hummer belonging to Arnold Schwarzenegger (sp) all done up in black laquer and crome. The other was a WAY custom Rangie belonging to Patrick Swazee (sp). There seemed to be an argument over which was better and some talk of a race later, haven't found out the results yet. -Pete- From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Feb 3 13:17:30 1994 From: marcus@dcs.qmw.ac.uk Subject: Re: Dieseling - on gas that is To: hiner@mbs.telesys.utexas.edu (Greg Hiner) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 17:46:54 +0000 (GMT) Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com In-Reply-To: <199402011741.LAA01615@mbs.telesys.utexas.edu> from "Greg Hiner" at Feb 1, 94 11:40:00 am Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1491 Status: RO > What are the cures for an engine that has fits of dieseling - ie running on > erratically a few seconds after the ignition is turned off. I have heard > that turning down the idle is one method but I can't go much lower than it > is now. Is the carb running too rich? I have checked this and the timing > many times - but they seem correct. Any ideas? A common cause of this problem is the presence of foreign bodies in the combustion chamber, typically carbon deposits (or less frequently, small whiskers of metal which have detached themselves from the engine through wear or rough handling during servicing). What happens is that these become heated to red heat by the combustion process; when the source of ignition is removed, these red-hot fragments are hot enough to ignite the mixture still being drawn into the combustion chambers by the stored energy in the flywheel. This process is erratic because the pre-ignition takes place too early in the stroke, consequently the engine slows, resulting in less frequent combustion and therefore less heating of the offending fragments, which in turn results in less pre-ignition, and so on, until the engine finally stops. The most likely location of such deposits is actually on the spark plugs - take these out, and you may well find hard, scaly deposits on or around the electrodes. If so simply replace the plugs and your problem should be fixed. If not, your engine may need de-coking. Hope this helps. Marcus. From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Feb 3 18:17:06 1994 From: jory@MIT.EDU Sender: jory@PO7.mit.edu Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 19:07:06 -0500 To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: US markets for used rovers Status: RO Random question for stateside rover-types: where would people say you can get the best price for a restored (or completely rebuilt) land rover? does the wheelbase change this. For example, in Boston, I often see ads with people selling used rovers that have been completely done over (often not new frame, but sometimes yes) for 10-20K$US (yes, i actually saw an ad for one at the higher of those prices)... of course, i don't know what price they sold at, but it gives an idea of the market... moreover, these rovers tend to be in the 10-13K range. anyone shopped for rovers of this type? anyone sold rovers of this type? here or elsewhere? random vehicles (usual frame problems, misc other problems but often cited as being mechanically dependable, with some new parts) tend to be offered at anywhere between 2500-8000$US. -jory p.s. i've been told that canadians have a different standard for things like "runs well" or "rust free" or "excelleny/good condition" and that i should therefore take lower canadian rover prices with a grain of salt... anyone have perspectives on this bit of lore? as an unrelated aside, i originally got my '74 serIII for 900$US (and the other guy probably got the better end of that deal :) but hey, it was a learning experience... and if you spread the cost of parts and (mostly my) labor over the 6 years, well... i never was good at math, so i'll leave that calculation undone. From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Feb 3 18:30:18 1994 From: ranger@ugcs.caltech.edu To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Re: Land Rover Info requested In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 03 Feb 94 16:19:13 PDT." <9402031619.A00710@SMTP.QUESTS.COM> Date: Thu, 03 Feb 94 16:23:19 PST Status: RO In message <9402031619.A00710@SMTP.QUESTS.COM> you write: > I'm looking to buy a used Land Rover in the Southern California area. > Do you know of any clubs, individuals, or companies that might have > some for sale? There is a company called British Pacific which is in Burbank which sells Genuine Parts. When they had their shop in Pasadena, they had a bullitin board full of advertisements for Rovers. Unfortunately, I don't have their phone number here in the lab. They are located real close to the Burbank airport. Try calling information to get their number. Benjamin Smith ranger@ugcs.caltech.edu 1972 Land Rover SIII 88 From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Feb 3 18:43:16 1994 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 94 19:35:07 EST From: I feel a Jackson Pollock coming on To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Apparently-To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Re: US markets for used rovers Status: RO >where would people say you can get the best price for a restored (or >completely rebuilt) land rover? does the wheelbase change this. For >example, in Boston, I often see ads with people selling used rovers that >have been completely done over (often not new frame, but sometimes yes) for >10-20K$US (yes, i actually saw an ad for one at the higher of those >prices)... I can't comment on best price but I can give some data points. There is an outfit on Rt. 101 in southwestern New Hampshire that rebuilds and resells LandRovers. The base price for a rebuilt 88" is around $20K. And these are ground-up restorations with new frames and bulkhead, engine work, etc. I want to say the place is called 'Vintage Motorworks' but I can look up the name if anyone is interested. Monty From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Feb 3 17:39:39 1994 From: daryl@menzies.su.edu.au (Daryl Webb) Subject: Comparisons To: lro@stratus.com (Land Rover Owners Group) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 94 9:02:26 CST Status: RO Hey Guys I didnt mean to start a war :-) Roy mentioned that the US M-28 had a rollover problem. When the OZ Army swapped from the SIIa/SIII landy's to the 110 they had lots of rollovers and excursionary problems too. Apparently people used to driving by the seat of their pants in the leaf sprung rovers were going into corners *way* too fast in the coil sprung 110's. Ooops over she goes! Perhaps for military applications it doesnt pay for the vehicle to be too comfortable. Daryl Webb (daryl@menzies.su.edu.au) '82 Land-Rover SIII stage I V8 county wagon _-*_|\ ( 365,000+ K and *nearly* stuffed) / \ "Oil leak officer, What oil leak ?" \_.--._/ Darwin Australia (Kakadu country) "Top end Down-under" v From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Feb 3 19:46:29 1994 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 17:36:51 -0800 (PST) From: David Van Sickle Subject: Change of Address To: Land Rover Net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO Please change my address to: dvs@crl.com Also, looking for suggestions on replacing key/headlight assembly on my IIA 109. Thanks, David From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Feb 4 00:21:45 1994 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Change of Address From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 23:32:22 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO David Van Sickle writes: > Also, looking for suggestions on replacing key/headlight > assembly on my IIA 109. Find one off of a scrapped vehicle or very carefully rebuild your current one. To buy a new one is going to cost you a minimum US$60. They are rare and uncommon. The next qquestion is how original you wish the vehic;le to stay. A couple of switches and a Series III ignition will cost you a lot less. Rgds, Dixon -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Feb 4 00:21:43 1994 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Disco From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 23:34:35 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO Was talking to Land Rover Canada yesterday. The Disco goes on sale here June 1st. LRC had no knowledge of the sale to BMW and were "shocked". The sale is supposed to have no affect on LRC operations in Canada. Rgds, Dixon -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Feb 4 00:21:48 1994 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: FAQ From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 23:36:25 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO I understand the FAQ (July version) is to be uploaded onto an ftp site in utah. (triumph.cs.utah.edu I believe) Rgds, Dixon -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Feb 4 03:23:57 1994 From: Mike Rooth Subject: Re: Disco To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Date: Fri, 4 Feb 94 9:15:39 GMT Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com In-Reply-To: ; from "dixon kenner" at Feb 3, 94 11:34 pm Status: RO > > > > Was talking to Land Rover Canada yesterday. > > The Disco goes on sale here June 1st. > > LRC had no knowledge of the sale to BMW and were "shocked". The > sale is supposed to have no affect on LRC operations in Canada. > > Rgds, > > Dixon > > > -- > dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca > FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada > Dixon, I'm not surprised they were shocked.Rover employees first knew about it when they heard it on the radio *after* it had happened.I believe its called blitzkreig. Cheers Mike From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Feb 4 05:18:19 1994 X-Authentication-Warning: tornadic.sw.stratus.com: Host localhost.stratus.com didn't use HELO protocol To: brandenberg@gauss.enet.dec.com Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Re: US markets for used rovers In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 03 Feb 94 19:35:07 EST." <9402040032.AA05991@easynet.crl.dec.com> Date: Fri, 04 Feb 94 06:15:03 -0500 From: William Caloccia Status: RO >where would people say you can get the best price for a restored (or >completely rebuilt) land rover? does the wheelbase change this. For >example, in Boston, I often see ads with people selling used rovers that >have been completely done over (often not new frame, but sometimes yes) fo r >10-20K$US (yes, i actually saw an ad for one at the higher of those >prices)... I can't comment on best price but I can give some data points. > There is an outfit on Rt. 101 in southwestern New Hampshire that > rebuilds and resells LandRovers. The base price for a rebuilt > 88" is around $20K. And these are ground-up restorations with new Cheshire Foreign Motors, they also do other british cars (like 7's) and made some money on the side bringing rust free southern cars to NH. (they had the remains of a S.I which was reportedly used by Hemmingway in Africa or somewhere like that) He assembled a good rover bone yard but it's not for use except in his restorations. I got that he liked British cars not so as much as how lucrative it was to be a be in the British car business. Their '87 price for a fully re-done 109" was $27,000 (New 110" 3.8L v8s were ~$40 here in '93), and $13,000 for a nearly rust-free California S.III 88" w/winch and OD Rovers's North, Atlantic/British/Pacific, the place in the Pacific North West, and DAP all offer lists of in-house and customer re-built Rovers. That isn't to say any of them have the best price, but they are players in the market. For as much as I've come to dislike most of those vendors for one reason or another. All right Greg (?) do you want to post the rover dealer list again ? From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Feb 4 05:23:59 1994 X-Authentication-Warning: tornadic.sw.stratus.com: Host localhost.stratus.com didn't use HELO protocol To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Cc: lro@stratus.com Subject: Re: Disco In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 03 Feb 94 23:34:35 EST." Date: Fri, 04 Feb 94 06:20:49 -0500 From: William Caloccia Status: RO >Land Rover Canada yesterday. > ... had no knowledge of the sale to BMW ... well I suppose that says a lot 'bout LRC .... From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Feb 4 08:54:59 1994 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 08:47:47 -0600 To: lro@transfer.stratus.com From: hiner@mbs.telesys.utexas.edu (Greg Hiner) Subject: Re: US markets for used rovers Status: RO jory says: > >where would people say you can get the best price for a restored (or >completely rebuilt) land rover? does the wheelbase change this. For >example, in Boston, I often see ads with people selling used rovers that >have been completely done over (often not new frame, but sometimes yes) for >10-20K$US (yes, i actually saw an ad for one at the higher of those >prices)... of course, i don't know what price they sold at, but it gives an >idea of the market... moreover, these rovers tend to be in the 10-13K >range. anyone shopped for rovers of this type? anyone sold rovers of this >type? here or elsewhere? > There are easily more Rovers back east - no doubt - but it seems to me you have a better chance of getting one with a good frame (and swivel pin housings etc.) in the Southwest or West and that easily makes the Rover worth more no matter how many new parts the truck has on it. I too have seen these restored Rovers in the 10-20k range (the ads that is not the actual cars) and I always wonder what they sell for too. But I do think the days of the $950 Rover are pretty much over unless you are willing to do a lot of work. I talked with the owner of Roverworks some time back and they are trying to do some pretty adventurous stuff - like Tdi's in old LRs and coil sprung frames. They habe a lot of technical stuff to work out and there is a real question whether somebody wants to spend that much for a LR. Also with the new BMW deal who knows what cars we will see in the states? I did speak with a LR guy who didn't rule out their bringing over the Tdi - but emissions will be tough. Greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greg Hiner (512) 471-7277 Computer Support hiner@mbs.telesys.utexas.edu Garrison Hall University of Texas at Austin From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Feb 4 09:06:03 1994 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 08:59:16 -0600 To: lro@transfer.stratus.com From: hiner@mbs.telesys.utexas.edu (Greg Hiner) Subject: Re: US markets for used rovers Status: RO >>All right Greg (?) do you want to post the rover dealer list again ? Dixon has taken my old list and made it part of the FAQ. Best - Greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greg Hiner (512) 471-7277 Computer Support hiner@mbs.telesys.utexas.edu Garrison Hall University of Texas at Austin From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Feb 4 09:29:26 1994 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 09:21:36 -0600 To: lro@transfer.stratus.com From: hiner@mbs.telesys.utexas.edu (Greg Hiner) Subject: Sparkplugs and FAQ Status: RO The FAQ is now at triumph.cs.utah.edu in the /pub/sol directory. If you get a chance you might take a look at it and make sure the upload is good. Thanks - Dixon! Also - does anybody by chance have the proper sparkplug # (that is the type or manufacturers #) for the 2.25l. I was also looking into putting those new split electrode plugs into my Rover and the only listing I can find in their literature is for the 2.5l Rover engine starting production in 1973 - - is that the 2.5l 4 cylinder used in the LR. (Do you ever feel like you are a sucker for every new thing when every you walk into the Autozone). Would the 2.5l plugs fit the 2.25l. Best - Greg From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Feb 4 11:02:53 1994 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 94 11:44:45 EST From: I feel a Jackson Pollock coming on To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Apparently-To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Re: US markets for used rovers Status: RO > Cheshire Foreign Motors, they also do other british cars (like 7's) and > made some money on the side bringing rust free southern cars to NH. > (they had the remains of a S.I which was reportedly used by Hemmingway > in Africa or somewhere like that) He assembled a good rover bone yard > but it's not for use except in his restorations. I got that he liked > British cars not so as much as how lucrative it was to be a be in the > British car business. > > Their '87 price for a fully re-done 109" was $27,000 > (New 110" 3.8L v8s were ~$40 here in '93), and $13,000 for a nearly > rust-free California S.III 88" w/winch and OD > Yes, that's it. Now that I'm home, I have their catalog in front of me. $20K for 88, $24K for two door 109, $27K for four door, and $29K for 'Sportsman'. Add $3K for SIII spec. All come with new 2.25l engine. Other engines: $2K for 2.5l GMC, $2K for 2.25l LR diesel, $6K for 4.8l GMC. They *do* now have a list of incomplete or untouched used LRs so I'll toss in their address: Cheshire Foreign Auto Service 441 East Main Street Marlborough, NH 03455 603.876.4613 monty From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Feb 4 11:54:30 1994 From: marcus@dcs.qmw.ac.uk Subject: Re: Sparkplugs and FAQ To: hiner@mbs.telesys.utexas.edu (Greg Hiner) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 17:35:01 +0000 (GMT) Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com In-Reply-To: <199402041522.JAA08922@mbs.telesys.utexas.edu> from "Greg Hiner" at Feb 4, 94 09:21:36 am Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1466 Status: RO > Also - does anybody by chance have the proper sparkplug # (that is the type > or manufacturers #) for the 2.25l. I was also looking into putting those > new split electrode plugs into my Rover and the only listing I can find in > their literature is for the 2.5l Rover engine starting production in 1973 - > - is that the 2.5l 4 cylinder used in the LR. (Do you ever feel like you > are a sucker for every new thing when every you walk into the Autozone). > Would the 2.5l plugs fit the 2.25l. 2.5 engines were introduced with the 90/110, so it's hard to see how production can have started in 1973... 2.5 plugs would very probably fit the 2.25 *physically*, but may well not be suitable in terms of their heat range, etc. - I can't comment on this 'cos I don't know. The 'correct' plug for the 2.25 depends (albeit very slightly) on the compression ratio and the age of the vehicle. SII/IIA vehicles are supposed to use the Champion N8 (regardless of compression ratio), but this plug is now discontinued - a suitable replacement is Champion N5C. The SIII is supposed to use the N8 (ie N5C) for 7:1 CR engines, and the NY12C (? not sure about this one, I'll have to check...) for 8:1 CR. I would not advise the use of the NGK BP5ES/BP6ES sometimes recommended, as I have found them to be more prone to the dieseling problem mentioned earlier. Having said all that, if plugs carry a different numbering scheme in North America - sorry! Marcus. From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Feb 4 20:19:51 1994 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 94 10:54:44 PST From: growl@terminous.Eng.Sun.COM (William L. Grouell) To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Re: Change of Address Cc: dvs@CRL.COM, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Status: RO David, Dixon is right, don't waste $60 on that piece of junk. It's only worth about $10K in good original condition. Why not just steal a wall switch from your apartment building and cut a big hole in the dash to stick it in. You don't need a key, no one would *want* to take it anyway, and most theives are to dumb to know how to drive it. Regards, Bill G. --- Duct tape IS the force, it has a dark side.--- > From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Feb 3 22:20:22 1994 > To: lro@stratus.com > Subject: Change of Address > Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca > Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada > Content-Length: 592 > X-Lines: 19 > > David Van Sickle writes: > > > Also, looking for suggestions on replacing key/headlight > > assembly on my IIA 109. > > Find one off of a scrapped vehicle or very carefully rebuild your > current one. To buy a new one is going to cost you a minimum > US$60. They are rare and uncommon. The next qquestion is how > original you wish the vehic;le to stay. A couple of switches and a > Series III ignition will cost you a lot less. > > Rgds, > > Dixon > > > -- > dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca > FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada > From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Feb 4 15:52:16 1994 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 16:38:29 -0500 (EST) From: Jan Hilborn Subject: Job Opening at Rovers North To: LRO Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO Jay Allen of Rovers North missed the earth quakes of California and has moved back there. (Really, he just couldn't take the cold winters...) Anyway, Rovers North is looking for his replacement. Land Rover enthusiasts with mechanical experience/parts knowledge might think about calling RN ((802) 879-0032). It's long hours, low pay, rural atmosphere, no nightlife, and all the talk about Rovers anyone could ever want... (it's also a good group of folks to work with and has benefits and little things like that...) thought everyone out there might like to know - jan From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Sat Feb 5 15:26:40 1994 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Fitting Brake shoes to Drum brakes -- the whole experience. (rfc From: dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (Dale Desprey) Reply-To: dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Date: Sat, 5 Feb 1994 15:29:08 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO "Ian Stuart, R(D)SVS (Tel: 6205)" writes: > OK folks -- my first, tentitive steps at work on Obediah, The Brakes! > > Please comment, refine and ammend 'till it's right. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Caring for your Aluminim Friend, Chapter x > (removing & replacing brake shoes) So far so good. I have only a couple of things to add. Taking off the drums. When I first got mine, the drums were frozen on due to rust. Solution, eight pound sledge. I do not recommend this, but they had to come off, and at the time I didn't care if it came off in pieces. Cracked one and bought a new one. they are expensive. When the three screws are removed - I use a impact driver with a slot head, the type you hit with a hammer - I insert the screw into the threaded hole to pull the drum away from the hub. once off, I put a tiny amount of anti seize compound in a circle on the inside where the bolt holes are. Keep it well away from the actual surface and brake pads. Next tim,e it comes off easily. Buy a brake spring tool. These are not an optional piese of equipment. It cuts the time to remove and put on springs by half.( that should have read piece) They are also inexpensive. Dale Desprey -- Dale Desprey, dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Sun Feb 6 01:43:23 1994 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Re: Disco From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Date: Sat, 5 Feb 1994 21:31:42 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO Mike Rooth writes: > > LRC had no knowledge of the sale to BMW and were "shocked". The > > sale is supposed to have no affect on LRC operations in Canada. > I'm not surprised they were shocked.Rover employees first knew about > it when they heard it on the radio *after* it had happened.I believe > its called blitzkreig. Blitzkrieg is a good description of the sale. BTW, the woring I used could imply that LRC didn't know until Tuesday about the sale. The knew on Monday when people started to phone them from to tell them what they had heard. I wonder how low down the totem pole the information was actually known within Rover. Rgds, Dixon -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Sun Feb 6 01:43:22 1994 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Re: US markets for used rovers From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Date: Sat, 5 Feb 1994 21:40:06 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO hiner@mbs.telesys.utexas.edu (Greg Hiner) writes: > Dixon has taken my old list and made it part of the FAQ. True, but there has not been any traffic since you originally posted it to dentoe many additions or changes to the list. If anyone has any additions or changes... Rgds, Dixon -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Sun Feb 6 01:44:01 1994 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Re: US markets for used rovers From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Date: Sat, 5 Feb 1994 21:42:36 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO I feel a Jackson Pollock coming on writes: > Yes, that's it. Now that I'm home, I have their catalog in front of > me. $20K for 88, $24K for two door 109, $27K for four door, and > $29K for 'Sportsman'. Add $3K for SIII spec. All come with new > 2.25l engine. Other engines: $2K for 2.5l GMC, $2K for 2.25l LR diesel, > $6K for 4.8l GMC. I just received a notice from a chap in Vancouver BC that will have 101FC's for sale. Cdn$13,000 is the stated price. Unfortunately I don't have the cash, though I bet you I could better the price, including shipping, by getting one directly from the UK. A 101? hmmmm, though a Range Rover is also an attractive option. -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Sun Feb 6 11:31:50 1994 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Fitting Brake shoes to Drum brakes -- the whole experience. (rfc From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Date: Sun, 6 Feb 1994 10:09:06 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (Dale Desprey) writes: > So far so good. I have only a couple of things to add. Taking off the > drums. When I first got mine, the drums were frozen on due to rust. > Solution, eight pound sledge. I do not recommend this, but they had to > come off, and at the time I didn't care if it came off in pieces. > Cracked one and bought a new one. they are expensive. Sledge, gallons of penetrating oil, lots of heat (though this was done in the middle of February on my 109), and a tremendous amount of time if they have had 20 years to anneal themselves into one solid piece. Some on the list may remembe my trials at getting the drums off... > Buy a brake spring tool. These are not an optional piese of equipment. > It cuts the time to remove and put on springs by half.( that should have > read piece) They are also inexpensive. A wonderful tool, especially if one is in the habit of going off-road fairly often. The fine mud and clay in Almonte will destroy a set of pads in a few months. BTW, the adjusters on your 88. Are they 1/2"? Mine are 11/16". Rgds, Dixon PS. Ted and I brought the 88 back down from near the upper field yesterday. It took quite a while to pull it through the snow. The snow has a lovely layer of ice, and what is underneath is very dry sn slippery. -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Sun Feb 6 11:32:11 1994 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Re: Change of Address From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Date: Sun, 6 Feb 1994 10:41:51 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO growl@terminous.Eng.Sun.COM (William L. Grouell) writes: > You don't need a key, no one would *want* to take it anyway, and most > theives are to dumb to know how to drive it. I generally leave the 109 in low range fwd in hope that the potential thief will have a marvelous high speed gataway should they decide to borrow the beast. The other "safety" feature is the starter switch. It is interesting to see people get in a Land Rover, turn the key, then complain that it must be broken since the starter doesn't turn. The fact the public is brainwashed into a state where a vehicle must start when you turn the key tends to confuse them when this doesn't happen. Rgds, Dixon -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Sun Feb 6 11:31:22 1994 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Sparkplugs and FAQ From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Date: Sun, 6 Feb 1994 10:50:47 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO hiner@mbs.telesys.utexas.edu (Greg Hiner) writes: > Also - does anybody by chance have the proper sparkplug # (that is the type > or manufacturers #) for the 2.25l. Here are a few numbers... (from the next version of the FAQ) Spark plugs: Parts: SI SII & IIA SIII 6-cyl from "B" from "D" Land Rover RTC3569 RTC3570 RTC3571 Champion N-5 N-5 N-9Y N-12Y N-5 AC 44XL 44XL 42LXS 44XLS 44XL Autolile 2616 2616 52 3205 2616 - for radio interference supression, get "R" designator Rgds, Dixon -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Sun Feb 6 21:57:15 1994 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: A question for the Brits... From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Date: Sun, 6 Feb 1994 20:56:12 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO A quick question for someone who lives over in the home of the Land Rover. Assume a package weighing very nearly exactly 20 pounds, or about 9 kilogrammes. What would the cost of postage be for this package; between the UK and Canada; going at the various rates; including the rate that takes about seven weeks to arrive(1)? Rgds, Dixon PS, the piston rings you ask? Genuine parts, in fact they are in so many parts you wouldn't know what they were except for the one set of rings for one piston that are still in one piece... Seven weeks waiting for rings to get the snow-bound Swamp Beast back in the snow drifts, and they are smashed... 1. Sent on December 12th, it was available for pick-up on February 5th. Granted Communist (re: Canada) Post was involved in this high tech computerised movement of goods, but it took less time for General Wolfe to get over here and knock off the French on the Plains of Abraham in 1759. The rates will be used in my next fax leaving in the next couple of days. -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Feb 7 00:15:44 1994 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Hummer Vs LR (Was: Re: Rumour...... ) From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 00:06:30 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO ranger@ugcs.caltech.edu writes: > Land Rover | Hummer > 90 110 | M998 M1037 > | Troop Carrier Shelter Carrier Is this really fair? The Hummer is a military vehicle. The Land Rover isn't. How about adding a column with the 101FC? I saw the Hummer at the Ottawa Car show Thursday night. A wide sucker, too wide in my opinion. Seats four with a dinner table of a gearbox tunnel in between. Shorter (in height) than my 109, but more ground clearance, thus less vertical useful space inside. From my semi-former days with the Army Reserves, the Hummer wouldn't be bad in the open countryside, but if there is any forest about, good luck getting through it. At $70k (US I believe), give me a loaded Range Rover. Both would proably see the same amount of off-road driving. Rgds, Dixon -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Feb 7 00:41:19 1994 From: ranger@ugcs.caltech.edu To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Re: Hummer Vs LR (Was: Re: Rumour...... ) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 07 Feb 94 00:06:30 PST." Date: Sun, 06 Feb 94 22:36:25 PST Status: RO dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca writes: > ranger@ugcs.caltech.edu writes: > > > Land Rover | Hummer > > 90 110 | M998 M1037 > > | Troop Carrier Shelter Carrier > > Is this really fair? The Hummer is a military vehicle. The Land > Rover isn't. How about adding a column with the 101FC? I saw the I know that this wasn't a quite fair comparison, but the thread was comparing the Hummer and the Land Rover and I happened to remember this article. The article compared various vehicles in their chart. They were: Mercedes-Benz/Puch G model (standard and LWB), Sovamag TC10, UMM Alter, Land Rover (90,110, and 127), the two Hummer mentioned above, and Bucher (4x4 and 6x6) I would have put in 101FC stats if I had them. Heck, I had the money, I'd buy a 101FC and then tell the net about my impressions of the vehicle. Oh well, maybe in 10 years or so.... -Benjamin Smith ranger@ugcs.caltech.edu 1972 Land Rover SIII 88 From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Feb 7 13:16:07 1994 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 94 10:06:38 PST From: growl@terminous-12.Eng.Sun.COM (William L. Grouell) To: lro@stratus.com, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Subject: Re: Change of Address Status: RO I don't remember for sure but I think that's why I said they are too dumb to drive it. But then again I could have just been being sacastic, if it's possible to imagine me being sarcastic. R, bg =========================================================================== 4th law of thermodynamics: You can't get more work out of your kids than it takes to make them do it =========================================================================== > From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Sun Feb 6 09:30:34 1994 > To: lro@stratus.com > Subject: Re: Change of Address > Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca > Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada > Content-Length: 854 > X-Lines: 23 > > growl@terminous.Eng.Sun.COM (William L. Grouell) writes: > > > You don't need a key, no one would *want* to take it anyway, and most > > theives are to dumb to know how to drive it. > > I generally leave the 109 in low range fwd in hope that the > potential thief will have a marvelous high speed gataway should > they decide to borrow the beast. The other "safety" feature is the > starter switch. It is interesting to see people get in a Land > Rover, turn the key, then complain that it must be broken since > the starter doesn't turn. The fact the public is brainwashed into > a state where a vehicle must start when you turn the key tends to > confuse them when this doesn't happen. > > Rgds, > > Dixon > > > > -- > dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca > FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada > From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Feb 8 12:08:04 1994 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 11:48:36 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: lro@transfer.stratus.com From: hiner@mbs.telesys.utexas.edu (Greg Hiner) Subject: Re: Sparkplugs and FAQ Status: RO >hiner@mbs.telesys.utexas.edu (Greg Hiner) writes: > >> Also - does anybody by chance have the proper sparkplug # (that is the type >> or manufacturers #) for the 2.25l. > > Here are a few numbers... (from the next version of the FAQ) > > Spark plugs: Parts: SI SII & IIA SIII 6-cyl > from "B" from "D" > Land Rover RTC3569 RTC3570 RTC3571 > Champion N-5 N-5 N-9Y N-12Y N-5 > AC 44XL 44XL 42LXS 44XLS 44XL > Autolile 2616 2616 52 3205 2616 > - for radio interference supression, get "R" designator > > Rgds, > > Dixon > Well before I got this info Dixon I looked into the bottom of the seat box and found an old container of champion plugs. The number on them was N11YC. So I went to the parts store and try to get those - out - and instead ended up with Motorcraft AGS32C. I put them in and they work fine but I guess I do have the wrong plug. I did have NGK BP6ES before but as Marcus said "I would not advise the use of the NGK BP5ES/BP6ES sometimes recommended, as I have found them to be more prone to the dieseling problem mentioned earlier." So with the new plugs and a container of techron fuel cleaner I think I might have cured the dieseling blues. However - if the car is running fine should I change plugs? What exactly is the danger? Best - Greg PS - Has anyone checked the FAQ on triumph.cs.utah.edu to see if the upload was good. I am concerned that I didn't get the format right and the upload may be nothing but a long string of unformatted text. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greg Hiner (512) 471-7277 Computer Support hiner@mbs.telesys.utexas.edu Garrison Hall 318 University of Texas at Austin From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Feb 8 16:33:02 1994 From: ranger@ugcs.caltech.edu To: lro@transfer.stratus.com In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 08 Feb 94 14:15:06 PST." <199402081915.OAA06498@transfer.stratus.com> Date: Tue, 08 Feb 94 14:22:28 PST Status: RO In message <199402081915.OAA06498@transfer.stratus.com> you write: > ps Saw some footage of the mudslides and floods in LA today....many smaller > trucks and pickups-isuzus, toyotas, nissans, 'merican rigs, and more all > swallowed up by the muck......not a single rover, though.......so ben's > must still be rollin' I'm still rolling, but I haven't found any mud to play in yet. The mudslides were in Altadena (two miles north of me) and Malibu (which is an hour's drive away). If I did get stuck, do you think I would let a film crew get me on tape? At least they'd see me winching out. So I've been noticing. Someone really doesn't like Los Angeles. In recent times we've had Riots, Fires, a major Earthquake, Floods (water and mud) and Tornados. Yes the morning paper mentioned a water spout and "Cyclone type winds" the touched down in Orange County. Ben From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Feb 8 14:05:26 1994 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 94 10:40:08 PST From: Bruce Harding To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Sparkplugs X-Status: Status: RO I've been running NGK BP6ES plugs in my beast for 12k miles with no problems. They seem to burn fine with no dieseling. Bruce_Harding@ccm.hf.intel.com 1970 88" Series IIA From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Feb 8 14:07:20 1994 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 94 13:46:24 -0500 From: "Russell G. Dushin" Apparently-To: lro@transfer.stratus.com X-Status: Status: RO >would not advise the use of the NGK BP5ES/BP6ES sometimes recommended, as I have found them to be more prone to the dieseling problem mentioned earlier might this be due to the extended tip these plugs have? if the dieseling problem is caused by "hot coal remnants" of the combustion process, then it may be that these plugs, which have enlarged inner electrodes and hence a smaller free space between the insulator-bit-of-the-electrode and the inside of the plug, have a greater tendancy to trap the "hot coals". aye? rd/danige From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Feb 8 13:24:21 1994 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 94 14:15:06 -0500 From: "Russell G. Dushin" Apparently-To: lro@transfer.stratus.com X-Status: Status: RO ************************************************************************** KING O' DA ROAD ************************************************************************** Yet another snowstorm has struck the northeast and southern new york is looking lots like ontario once again (in fact, it has for the past month and a half). Nigel has regained his crown as King o' da Road.....the left lane now belongs to he and i. rd ps Saw some footage of the mudslides and floods in LA today....many smaller trucks and pickups-isuzus, toyotas, nissans, 'merican rigs, and more all swallowed up by the muck......not a single rover, though.......so ben's must still be rollin'  From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Feb 9 10:12:57 1994 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 94 11:06:34 -0500 From: "Russell G. Dushin" Apparently-To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Status: RO * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ***************** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~||** | |||| |[| [ ____XXXXXXXXX_____ |Oo | XX[| oO|)(O[  | |xxxxxxxx| |(O) (O)xx***************** ***   ************** || ___  | |xxxxxxxx(O) xx (O)[  | | [=================] XX XX ______________ X========o========* ohhhhhh, I love this stuff...........**************************************************************** (sure beats mudslides #@$@%#%#$@#^#^@&!^#%&!%#&$(*&$#&^@#%#^!($^^ %#&%&$#*!@%#*^&$%@#^%)%^($&#$*^#*5(*$%(&$*^#(#) > So I've been noticing. Someone really doesn't like Los Angeles. In recent times we've had Riots, Fires, a major Earthquake, Floods (water and mud) and Tornados. Yes the morning paper mentioned a water spout and "Cyclone type winds" the touched down in Orange County. move east, young man. rd/nige From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Feb 9 11:17:02 1994 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 94 10:08:24 MST From: rhcaldw@nma.mnet.uswest.com ( ROY CALDWELL ) To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Rover V. Hummer Status: RO Dixon, I think you made the best observation regarding the hummer. It is very big. The stats hint at that, but until you actually see one and drive it, the size is hard to grasp, no matter how many stat sheets you read. It is an open country vehicle, no doubt about it. There are place around Helena, that I have driven my Series I in, that there is no way a Hummer could have followed me. That was mostly not the grade or anything it was because of the spacing of the trees. I went between two trees that were only inches from each door. It was on a ridge and there was no way around the trees, you had to follow the road and go between. Plus I don't like the tire size and the fact that even with the rim ribs for the no flat feature, there is no way to carry a spare. It is possible to damage a tire in such a way that even that high tech feature wouldn't keep you running. You are also very correct about the huge transmission hump. It is very large. In the Gulf alot of the Cav hummers had GPS and extra tac radios mounted on the hump. Plus because of the high sill on the doors, the hummer is a pain in the ass to get in and out of. The drivers position is very cramped and the sterring wheel has a very high flat position. There is no floor boards to speak of. I found that getting in and out of the thing wearing a flak jacket, with my TA50 gear, two canteens, a .45 and an M-16 plus my cameras, a huge pain. As long as I'm rolling what else can I remember. The tops aren't worth shit. The hard top version used by the MPs was a little better but added alot of dead weight. Thr soft top does not cover the rear cargo space. The rear cargo space is not much bigger than the rear of an 88. You would expect more cargo space for such a large vehicle. Many of the guys in the Gulf used plywood to build a hard sheel that fit on the back. One positive comment: the ambulance version is really cool. It is big and roomy and the height doen't really make it top heavy for some reason. That would no matter what reduce the side hill ability. But it would make a great camper. I think it would be comprabale to a Dornmobile. Well that's my memories of driving and seeing how they were used in the Gulf. Roy From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Feb 9 11:34:32 1994 From: ranger@ugcs.caltech.edu To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: LA Bad/East Coast Good In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 09 Feb 94 11:06:34 PST." <199402091606.LAA16528@transfer.stratus.com> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 94 09:28:37 PST Status: RO In message <199402091606.LAA16528@transfer.stratus.com> Russel Dushin writes: >Ben Smith writes: > >> So I've been noticing. Someone really doesn't like Los Angeles. In >> recent times we've had Riots, Fires, a major Earthquake, Floods (water and >> mud) and Tornados. Yes the morning paper mentioned a water spout and >> "Cyclone" type winds" the touched down in Orange County. > > move east, young man. I am. As soon as I get my diploma June 10th, I'm packing all my world possessions into my 88 and a uhaul trailer and heading back east. Unfortunately, my destination is New Jersey and my parents' home, bu that will change awhen I get myself an apartment. I'll have to get a job and face the real world. (Then I'll dive back into grad school in a year or two). Ben From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Feb 9 16:27:37 1994 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 94 17:16:31 -0500 From: "Russell G. Dushin" Apparently-To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Status: RO >?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????? ???? ? sorry, but my low-budget attempt at ASCII graphics got botched- it was SUPPOSED to be a rover, hub-deep in snow (I know, I know- roof deep in ontario, but hub-deep is the best we can do in southern NY), in the midst of a snowstorm. If you care to, you may be able to adjust it into alignment-but yours, TerriAnn, got botched way worse than mine-so surely it isn't worth your time. Besides, the snow bits were the best of it, and they came through just fine...... .....all in fun, and for the amusement of those in warmer climates- the drizzling motherland, sun-soaked down-underside, fogged-in bay area-and-south-of, and the fire-scortched/earth shooken/rain-soaked- mud-slidin' LA basin. rd/nige (who wants me to buy him a tobaggon SOOOO bad) ps Ben-if you're a chemist I got a job for ya! From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Feb 10 00:05:27 1994 From: tomills@diana.cair.du.edu (T.F. Mills) Subject: how to subscribe? To: land-rover-owner@stratus.com Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 23:02:11 -0700 (MST) Cc: tomills@diana.cair.du.edu (todd mills) Content-Type: text Content-Length: 330 Status: RO I hope some kind soul can help me get on this list. I sent a "subscribe" command 24 hrs ago to land-rover-owner-request. I'm not too familiar with "request" lists: do I just wait for a listowner to manually add me? Or is an automatic feature not working very fast? TIA, and best wishes! T. F. Mills tomills@du.edu From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Feb 10 05:03:08 1994 From: Mike Rooth Subject: Rover/Hummer To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Date: Thu, 10 Feb 94 10:55:12 GMT Status: RO Thanks for that description,Roy,it makes things *much* clearer. It also makes me wonder whether its maybe a bit silly to try to compare the vehicles.Rather like,in cavalry terms,comparing the horse and the camel. Could it be that the two may well be complementary,each having their own strengths and weaknesses.For instance,imagine a high speed,deep penetration,"skirmishing" force,of,say,four to six 90 "gunships",*relatively* lightly armed,but fast and highly manoeverable,with,say,two Hummers,one as a Command and Comms vehicle and the other somewhat more heavily armed for support/ strike power where needed.Something,at a guess rather like the WW11 Long Range Desert Group used,but faster and better armed. You have the properties of speed,good terrain covering,etc. You also have a collection of *very* low profile machinery,which, I beleive,was a highly prized property of the WW11 jeep in such circumstances. Having said this,I freely admit to absolutely *no* military experience at all,so I'm quite happy to be scoffed at on this one.It is probably either too ridiculous to be tried,or so obvious it already has been. On a different note,I have a sneaking suspicion that "reply" doesnt always work from here,so did you get the postage prices Dixon,and did you,Bill get the reply I sent about UK running costs? Cheers Mike Rooth From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Feb 9 21:03:56 1994 From: daryl@menzies.su.edu.au (Daryl Webb) Subject: Snow storm ?? Whats snow. To: lro@stratus.com (Land Rover Owners Group) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 94 9:27:38 CST Status: RO So thats what Nige looks like! Russell's ASCII graphic isnt too bad. Save it as a file and use "more" to read it. Sorry I dont know the non-unix equivalent or any of the technical reasons why this is so. Hey me and my rover arent talking at the moment! I tried to do the right thing last night and tighten some of the tow mount securing bolts that got damaged rescuing a Tojo many years ago. Got everything tight all right, but It wouldnt let go of the ring spanner. Got jammed underneath a lip on the chassis, had to partially drop the fuel tank and undo the bolts I had just tightened to retreive it. Totally uncalled for I feel. What worries me is that when I repeated the procedure with an English made rather than Australian spanner there was no problem. Is it possible that our Rovers are becoming pedantic over little things following the BMW take over???? daryl From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Feb 9 19:49:27 1994 From: daryl@menzies.su.edu.au (Daryl Webb) Subject: Snow storm take 2 To: lro@stratus.com (Land Rover Owners Group) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 94 9:31:47 CST Status: RO hi apart from "more" you can also use "cat" or its equivalent. dag's From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Feb 10 11:06:14 1994 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 94 10:24:28 -0500 From: "Russell G. Dushin" Apparently-To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Status: RO >Is it possible that our Rovers are becoming pedantic over little things following the BMW take over???? very. Nigel has been hassling me on these cold winter mornings....doesn't wanna start, doesn't wanna run when he does. This a.m. once started, he let out a horrendous roar (the throttle linkage got stuck) as if to say-"take the beemer, go ahead-make my day". A can of WD40 (that needed to be warmed up in order to squirt) was required to remove the old grease (that worked just fine in warmer weather, but got sluggish in the cold)....but surely it will need attention again (since WD has such a limited lifespan). Aside from the linkage, I do believe I gots some fuel delivery problems- a similarly sluggish feeling fuel pump lever makes me suspect it may be time for a cleaning, and a rebuild kit is in hand (how cold do you canooks work in??), along with a fresh fuel filter......but it could be time to dig into my rochester..... rd/nige From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Feb 10 14:08:58 1994 >From: Benjamin Smith To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: ASCII Art Reply-To: ranger@ugcs.caltech.edu Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 12:00:12 -0800 From: Ben Smith Status: RO I was working late last night and during a break I couldn't fiddling with Henry Stevens' Land Rover ASCII art. ,------,-------, | | | |---{%%%%%%}---| @==============@ |(@) [####] (@)| | o [####] o | ================ {%} {%} {%} {%} ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~