From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Dec 1 01:29:17 1993 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Trouble and Strife From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 22:13:25 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (Dale Desprey) writes: > I drank much beer. Which you followed up with a party Saturday evening with much more beer, southern comfort, multiple showings of "The Gods must be Crazy"... :-) :-) :-) See you Friday evening at the Christmas party... Rgds, Dixon BTW, You hid your new springs rather well. We never managed to find them. Even Ted was at a loss, even after your high-tech exercise bike shut down and announced that he was dead... ROFL! So, like, where were they? :-) -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Dec 1 01:28:57 1993 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Series III brake/clutch questions From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 22:07:27 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO "TeriAnn Wakeman" writes: > I need a bit of assistance from you series III owners. Some questions... (Ted and I went over this message this evening, but are going to wait until daylight to go over his III to give details) > 2. Does the clutch master cylinder's fluid resevoir sit up against the bulkhe > or is it turned in the same direction as the brake cylinder with the resevoir > closest to the radiator? Are you using a III clutch assembly, or are you using the IIA with the canister resevoir? Rgds, Dixon -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Dec 1 01:28:57 1993 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Re: Series III brake/clutch questions From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 21:58:51 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO marcus@dcs.qmw.ac.uk writes: > Bleeding brakes on a land rover is usually a pain, but here are a few tips > passed on to me by a franchised dealer in the UK. Very interesting... The leading and trailing shoes are all correct, we made sure of that when we put the entire system together. All of the wheel cylinders are new, along with the brake shoes. However... > Second, invest in three hydraulic hose clamps. Clamp off all hoses - if you > still have a spongy pedal the master cylinder (or less frequently, the servo > if you have a remote servo) requires attention. This I found very interesting. I had never thought of doing this, and will make the investment in the required clamps. The easybleed system I have heard much of from friends and on the British-Cars mailing-list. However, short of ordering one from the US (I tend to be lazy at times), I have never seen one here in Ottawa. Overall, an excellent synopsis of how to go about bleeding brakes. Thx, Dixon -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Nov 30 18:35:24 1993 From: Mark J Keenan Subject: Re: Series III brake/clutch questions To: lro@stratus.com (Landy List) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1993 08:35:16 +0800 (WST) In-Reply-To: from "dixon kenner" at Nov 30, 93 07:37:55 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1910 Status: RO > > Mark J Keenan writes: > > > I travelled half way around Australia thinking my brakes were shot (as > > it was they were partly) because I always had to pump them. I had > > gotten used to it until a mechanic told me it was a problem and TRIED to > > fix it....he fixed it and the improvement lasted about a week!! > > What was his fix that lasted a week? > > Rgds, > > Dixon One of the cylinders was seizing because (I think from memory) the cup was all chewed up. He didn't replace it though - instead he got it rebored (?? can you do this ??). For a week the brakes worked great (except for the aforementioned "pumping syndrome") and then they started to pull to one side again?? By this stage however I was some 2000 kms down the road in sunny Queensland!! Incidentally I have a question (or two) about the LR!! I have since sold it so the answers need not be too detailed but out of interest: 1. On Fraser Island (big sand dune island off Qld coast - great place) the old girl kept slamming (dropping but LOUDER and HARDER) out of reverse when in 4wd. She would only do this when under load : ie: backing uphill or in sand. A similar thing would happen when engine braking in second down steep slopes (dangerous!!). Any hints why? 2. The gbox was replaced but did not fix this problem (but did fix some others like grinding noises etc).....the transmission was still incredibly noisy (even for a Landy). Depressing the clutch removed part of the noise and it was worst when engaged in forward gears and travelling.....????? Anyhow Cheers Mark. ***************************** Mark Keenan - mkeenan@uniwa.uwa.edu.au MEngSc Student in the Mech & Mat Engineering Department University of Western Australia, Nedlands WA 6009 Landrover - Noisy uncomfortable vehicles for noisy uncomfortable people ***************************** From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Dec 2 06:34:37 1993 From: marcus@dcs.qmw.ac.uk Subject: Re: Frames: Manufacturers To: phhester@lenexa.lenexa.ingr.com Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1993 12:33:27 +0000 (GMT) Cc: lro@stratus.com In-Reply-To: <199311302238.AA20965@lenexa.lenexa.ingr.com> from "Paul Hester" at Nov 30, 93 04:38:35 pm Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1176 Status: RO > I am interested in learning about who the actually manufacturers (not > just distributors) are and of any variance in quality of the frames they > offer (or how complete they are). Anyone have the skinny on this? i.e. > are there some one should steer clear of vs. more desirable ones? I have been told by the parts manager of a certain UK franchised dealer, who shall remain anonymous, that of the available replacement chassis only those made by Steve Walker Land Rovers and Marsland Chassis are worth considering. Both are advertised in LRO. Best of all, of course, is to buy a new genuine Land Rover chassis, assuming that they still make one suitable for your vehicle - one is available for my 1970 109 - and you can afford the 1500+ pounds sterling. Admittedly, there is a strong temptation to go for the non-genuine replacement, not only because of the fact that they cost around 1000 pounds for a LWB version, but also because for this money you get a galvanised chassis - strangely, Land Rover still do not galvanise their chassis even though it is this item more than any other which determines the amount of useful life left in a vehicle. Marcus. From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Dec 1 20:22:45 1993 To: lro@stratus.com Cc: mkeenan@uniwa.uwa.edu.au Subject: Re: Series III brake/clutch questions From: dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (Dale Desprey) Reply-To: dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (Dale Desprey) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1993 14:56:46 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO > 1. On Fraser Island (big sand dune island off Qld coast - great place) > the old girl kept slamming (dropping but LOUDER and HARDER) out of > reverse when in 4wd. She would only do this when under load : ie: > backing uphill or in sand. A similar thing would happen when engine > braking in second down steep slopes (dangerous!!). Any hints why? > I am not sure why, but I came to the same conclusion as you did, as the old ser III used to do this. I sold it. What you describe is exactly what happened to mine. I was told that there were two reasons for this, a worn spring, which is easy to fix, Or a broken gear. After checking the first, which was fine, I assumed it was the latter. > 2. The gbox was replaced but did not fix this problem (but did fix > some others like grinding noises etc).....the transmission was still > incredibly noisy (even for a Landy). Depressing the clutch removed part > of the noise and it was worst when engaged in forward gears and > travelling.....????? > Was the replacement gearbox new? If not, it may have had the same disease as the first. The only unusual noise from my current lr is a rattling gearbox lever and a worn throw out bearing Dale Desprey Ottawa, Ontario -- Dale Desprey, dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Dec 1 11:37:42 1993 Date: Wed, 1 Dec 93 09:34:41 -0800 From: "TeriAnn Wakeman" Reply-To: "TeriAnn Wakeman" To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca, lro@stratus.com Subject: Re: Series III brake/clutch questions Status: RO In message <5uZuDc2w165w@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca> dixon kenner writes: > "TeriAnn Wakeman" writes: > > > I need a bit of assistance from you series III owners. > > Some questions... (Ted and I went over this message this evening, > but are going to wait until daylight to go over his III to give > details) > > > 2. Does the clutch master cylinder's fluid resevoir sit up against the > > bulkhe > > or is it turned in the same direction as the brake cylinder with the > > resevoir > > closest to the radiator? > > Are you using a III clutch assembly, or are you using the IIA with > the canister resevoir? > > Rgds, > > Dixon > I have mounted the Series III master cylinder to a Series IIA clutch peddle assembly. There is no place to mount the orignal resevoir on the Series III power brake assembly. Besides, I want to put the original resevoir in the TR3. It's in better shape than the 3's. The IIA clutch peddle assembly puts the series III integral clutch resevoir against the bulkhead. The rear wing mounting bracket interfers with the removal of the resevoir cap. A talk with someone at Rovers North, and a brief phone conversation with Jim "Scotty" Howett, indicated that everything will work together, but the series III has cutouts on the rear wing mounting bracket and the top of the wing to provide access to the clutch master cylinder and clearence for the power brake assembly. I am trying to find out: 1. If the series III clutch peddle assembly places the master clutch assembly in a better position for access 2. What the series III wing cut out dimensions are for clearing the brake & clutch. I am looking for measurements based from the rear of the wing and the seam where the side of the wing connects. I plan to make the LR operational this weekend, one way or another & I would like to do it right. So any help with the above two questions would be greatly appriciated. Thanks, TeriAnn TeriAnn Wakeman One of these days, I'll be old enough that twakeman@apple.com people will stop calling me crazy and start LINK: TWAKEMAN calling me eccentric. 408-974-2344 TR3A - TS75519L, MGBGT - GHD4U149572G, 109 - 164000561 From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Dec 2 10:35:06 1993 Date: Thu, 2 Dec 93 16:34:21 GMT From: u10122@sdsc.edu (dushin russell) To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: galvanized chassis Status: RO >strangely, Land Rover still do not galvanise their chassis even though it is this item more than any other which determines the amount of useful life left in a vehicle. Does anyone know the source of RN's (and others) galvanized chassis? Are they the same as available through Merseyside? rdushin/nige From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Dec 2 16:42:55 1993 Date: Thu, 2 Dec 93 17:40:35 EST From: I feel a Jackson Pollock coming on To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Apparently-To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Re: frames (and their origin) Status: RO >From jory... >someone was saying that atlantic british has their own frames welded >somewhere in new york, and that they were fairly out of spec, which sounded >like a real pain... I talked to one of the Mechanicsville, NY outfits about their frames (I assume it was AB at this point...). They actually have two different makes available now, at least one from GB that is in spec and (if I recall correctly) slightly less expensive than the RN frame. The other was less expensive still but he gave me a warning about having to 'adjust' various things to put it all together.... monty From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Dec 2 16:14:50 1993 From: jory@MIT.EDU Sender: jory@PO7.mit.edu Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1993 17:18:25 -0500 To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: frames (and their origin) Status: RO i was talking with charlie at rover's north, and asking where my frame (galvanized 88) which i used for my frame-up last summer came from if it wasn't a rover frame (if, as people on the list had said, LR doesn't offer a galvanized frame)... well charlie said that they get their galvanised frame from MARSLAND, the company which makes frames for LR, and that while MARSLAND can't sell un-glavanised frames due to their sourcing agreements with LR, that the galvanisation puts these frames outside of that... sounds a little convoluted, but i thought i'd pass it along... a few more tidbits about frames... i was complaining to rn after i had done my frame-up that i wish rover frames had removable transmission cross-members, useful for clutch jobs, etc, and lanny of rn said that they could get them, but that he never ordered them because they weren't original enough and would be unpopular on that account... i registered my preference for greater utility over strict originality, but too late for my rebuilt rover... someone was saying that atlantic british has their own frames welded somewhere in new york, and that they were fairly out of spec, which sounded like a real pain... my rover has no name, sex or gender... From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Dec 3 07:01:35 1993 From: marcus@dcs.qmw.ac.uk Subject: Re: frames (and their origin) To: jory@MIT.edu Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1993 12:59:39 +0000 (GMT) Cc: lro@stratus.com In-Reply-To: <9312022210.AA12931@MIT.EDU> from "jory@MIT.edu" at Dec 2, 93 05:18:25 pm Content-Type: text Content-Length: 622 Status: RO > MARSLAND can't sell un-glavanised frames due to their sourcing agreements > with LR, that the galvanisation puts these frames outside of that... sounds If you read Marsland's ad in LRO, you will discover that Marsland *do* supply ungalvanised chassis, so where charlie got that idea from... > i was complaining to rn after i had done my frame-up that i wish rover > frames had removable transmission cross-members, useful for clutch jobs, > etc, and lanny of rn said that they could get them, but that he never The V8 engined Land Rovers produced from 1980 onwards all have removable gearbox crossmembers. Marcus. From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Dec 3 06:25:57 1993 From: Mike Rooth Subject: Frame Preservation To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Date: Fri, 3 Dec 93 12:22:37 GMT Status: RO The accepted method over here to treat the inside of chassis members is to enlarge any holes that exist in the chassis(that is to say,those that are SUPPOSED to be there),and drill strategic holes where there arent any and to Waxoyl spray inside,using said orifices.I've never heard of any dissatisfaction with this procedure.Whilst diesel iol is highly penetrative it will dry out fairly quickly,and leave you with no protection,whilst Waxoyl doesnt,and stays flexible. One substance I *would* steer well clear of,personally,is underseal,which, IMO does more harm than good. Cheers Mike Rooth :wq From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Dec 2 22:04:08 1993 From: "Greg J. Pryzby" Subject: iJust got this address... Please add to the list To: lro@stratus.com Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1993 23:05:07 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text Content-Length: 85 Status: RO Please add me to the mailing list. If this is the wrong addres, please let me know. From caloccia@tornadic.sw.stratus.com Thu Dec 2 18:10:31 1993 X-Authentication-Warning: tornadic.sw.stratus.com: Host localhost.stratus.com didn't use HELO protocol To: ccray@lulu.cc.missouri.edu Cc: jory@MIT.EDU, lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Re: frames oiling and paint refinishing In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Dec 93 17:05:16 CST." <9312022305.AA12143@lulu.cc.missouri.edu> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 93 18:51:16 -0500 From: William Caloccia Status: RO I've also read that the newer LR models have rm TX members > The frame on my daily driver is sound (colorado car). I painted > with a brush after wiping off the dirt and oil with kerosene. > I do wish I could do something with the inside -- like diesel oil? I think Dixon recenlty posted about the frame oiling 'parties' OLVR has, my local body man uses oil mixed with rustproofing adjusted to the condition of the vehicle with old, hard rustproofing -- more oil in the mix will seep in and make it pliable and rejivinate it, otherwise you'll just make the coat deeper, and the new will fall off with chunks of the old... Ok, anyone out there know about chemical paint stripping (like for body panels) ? I noticed that the undersides of most of my Rover's aluminum panels are unfinished -- any suggestions on how to treat them and protect them ? (I understand the basic paint process for Aluminum or Galvanized includes preparing or 'etching' the metal to it will take the primer well. I think this round I'll use PPG paints instead of Dupont, but I'm not sure. -- bill From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Dec 2 17:36:09 1993 X-Authentication-Warning: tornadic.sw.stratus.com: Host localhost.stratus.com didn't use HELO protocol To: marcus@dcs.qmw.ac.uk Cc: phhester@lenexa.lenexa.ingr.com Cc: lro@stratus.com Subject: Re: Frames: Manufacturers In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Dec 93 12:33:27 GMT." <9312021233.AA01248@it025.dcs.qmw.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 93 18:36:02 -0500 From: William Caloccia Status: RO > I have been told by the parts manager of a certain UK franchised dealer, who > shall remain anonymous, that of the available replacement chassis only those > made by Steve Walker Land Rovers and Marsland Chassis are worth considering. > Both are advertised in LRO. Seems like one of the US importers was advertising that they were bringing in Steve Walker frames (galvanized and w/ removable gearbox members too boot !) > Best of all, of course, is to buy a new genuine Land Rover chassis, assuming > that they still make one suitable for your vehicle - one is available for my > 1970 109 - and you can afford the 1500+ pounds sterling. Admittedly, there > a strong temptation to go for the non-genuine replacement, not only because > of > the fact that they cost around 1000 pounds for a LWB version, but also because > for this money you get a galvanised chassis - strangely, Land Rover still do > not galvanise their chassis even though it is this item more than any other > which determines the amount of useful life left in a vehicle. >From the Haynes Restoration book, the history (by the folks from Dunsfold) indicates that some of the early models (very few) had galvanized chassis. The folks from Merseyside want about 600 quid for a galvanized 88" chassis, I don't know any of the particulars though. Since I've yet to get LRO (just put in for it), could one of you folks lookup to see what Walker gets for such a chassis ? Thanks, -- Bill From caloccia@tornadic.sw.stratus.com Thu Dec 2 17:30:25 1993 X-Authentication-Warning: tornadic.sw.stratus.com: Host localhost.stratus.com didn't use HELO protocol To: m.turpin@ucl.ac.uk (Michael Turpin) To: polstab@mizzou1.missouri.edu To: shawnl@wordperfect.com To: wpcallah@rwasic17.aud.alcatel.com (Paul Callahan) Cc: ccray@lulu.cc.missouri.edu Cc: Grettir Asmundarson Subject: Welcome to the land-rover-owner list !!! Date: Thu, 02 Dec 93 18:32:12 -0500 From: William Caloccia Status: RO Hi ! Welcome to the land-rover-owner list: You should receive one copy of this message, directly. For questions or submissions to the list send mail to land-rover-owner@stratus.com OR lro@stratus.com for administrative stuff, send to land-rover-owner-request@stratus.com OR lro-request@stratus.com This brings the number of subscribers to 70+. We presently have subscribers from the AU, UK, FI, NO, CA (Quebec & BC), and in the US, (Ca, Ut, Ny, Tx, Co, Pa, Ma, Mo, Wa, Or), who have Rovers ranging rom a '59 109" to current 90"-V8s, military light-weights, (US-spec) 110" Defenders, and Range Rovers. (How about a 127", Disco or Forward Control ?) Feel free to post an introductory note about you and/or your truck. Traffic on this list tends to be rather light. (Like, I don't think there has been a message in months, guess everyone is off roving...) --bill caloccia@Team.Net caloccia@Stratus.Com N R 1 3 2 H "Land Rover's first, becuase | +--|--| | | Land Rovers last." '69 Mk.IIa 88" OD 2 4 4 L land-rover-owners-request@Team.Net Ps thanks for waiting, I'm doing list add requests once every couple weeks. PPS A subscriber to the list, Greg Hiner has started to compile a list of Land Rover Parts Suppliers (USA & UK), and Land Rover Dealers, new and used (USA), if you are interested, please contact Greg directly. From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Dec 2 17:13:55 1993 X-Authentication-Warning: tornadic.sw.stratus.com: Host localhost.stratus.com didn't use HELO protocol To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Cc: lro@stratus.com, caloccia@tornadic.sw.stratus.com Subject: Re: Heaters In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 29 Nov 93 21:57:46 EST." Date: Thu, 02 Dec 93 18:10:04 -0500 From: William Caloccia Status: RO > The rear now has ballast > for those icey roads in the form of an engine and gearbox and other > assorted heavy Land Rover parts. They should weigh it down far > more effectively than bags of sand. Yes, but you probably don't want to take a shovel full of LR parts and throw 'em down on the ice for traction, eh ? From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Dec 2 17:12:51 1993 From: ccray@lulu.cc.missouri.edu Subject: Re: frames (and their origin) To: jory@MIT.EDU Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1993 17:05:16 -0600 (CST) Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com In-Reply-To: <9312022210.AA12931@MIT.EDU> from "jory@MIT.EDU" at Dec 2, 93 05:18:25 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2773 Status: RO > i was complaining to rn after i had done my frame-up that i wish rover > frames had removable transmission cross-members, useful for clutch jobs, > etc, and lanny of rn said that they could get them, but that he never > ordered them because they weren't original enough and would be unpopular on > that account... i registered my preference for greater utility over strict > originality, but too late for my rebuilt rover... Regarding the car I have in rebuild status: -- I did some welding on the frame -- put on a new rear cross member, added diagonal pieces to the outriggers that support the bulkhead (my 69 had those and to my understanding, so did some military frames). At that time, I noted that LRO magazine advertised frames with removable TX crossmembers and I heard that this was done on military vehicles, SO, I made my TX crossmember removable. I got 4 pieces of 3/16 plate with 4 neatly punched holes for inserting bolts and welded those suckers in so that the TX crossmember can be bolted in and out. -- I drilled with a saw attachment some 1" holes at strategic parts of the frame to allow zinc to flow thruout the frame -- and I had the whole frame galvanized. They charged about $0.20 per pound (I had paid $100 to have it sandblasted -- the alkyline bath removes paint poorly) for about $70 to have it galvanized. I told them to keep it in the alkyline bath and acid bath plenty long and I guess they did -- anyway I asked. -- When I got the frame back it looked good, but I thought it would look more origional if it were black. Acid prep solution to tone down the zinc and then 3 coats of DP90/DP401 which is a catalized acrylic primer (black). It looks good awaiting the rest of the rebuild, but hindsight says now I would have kept it unpainted and let the galvanize show. I have another frame that I am going to do the same to when it gets warm and I get caught up. This one doesn't need a cross-member but the previous owner liked to hit stumps and rocks and some of dents need to be hammered out. The frame on my daily driver is sound (colorado car). I painted with a brush after wiping off the dirt and oil with kerosene. I do wish I could do something with the inside -- like diesel oil? The crossmember needs to get a patch and a little straightening and that will come with warm weather, too. Anyway, 5pm. Time to fight the crowd.... ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ray Harder Columbia, Missouri 314-882-2000 - 61 SIIa 88 (LULU) - 66 SIIa 88 (rebuild project) - 69 SIIa 88 (parts) - 87 RR (wife's) - 80 MGB - xx ------------------------------------------------------------------- From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Dec 2 21:23:28 1993 From: leefi@microsoft.com To: lro@stratus.com Subject: British Police Lose to Range Rover Date: Thu, 02 Dec 93 19:17:39 Status: RO lockup your Rovers in case there are any copycat crimes out there... | Blues Brothers, UK style ... | | I don't know if anyone read a story in their Saturday morning tabloid about | a 3 hour chase around High Wycombe and surrounding towns which resulted 9 | [NINE!] police cars being totalled by three joyriders in a Range Rover. | What was printed in the papers was pretty astonishing (for many reasons); | however, it's not quite the full and unexpurgated story. I live in Wycombe, | and about 0200 on Friday morning I was woken up by a jellywopper hovering | low over my house and waving a searchlight about in my general direction; | obviously the police, and it worried me enough that I went and dug out my | old FM airband radio to see if I might discover what kind of gun toting | psycho they were looking for in close proximity to my front garden. As a | result, I listened into the whole incident in it's un-glossed form; the | police don't come out of it smelling of roses. | | The lunatic driving the Range Rover was obviously an excellent driver; | bloody good job, too, because if he hadn't been he would surely have been | through the side of someone's house, the speeds he was being chased at. As | it was, the only thing he hit all night were police vehicles, all of them | deliberately. After three hours every high-speed traffic jam sandwich for | miles around, including the local armed response vehicle, was a pile of | twisted metal. The police were reduced to following in their bottom-of- | range Astra panda cars, or more accurately hiding from the Range Rover | which had gone from pursued to pursuer; I heard one car calling in an | asking if it was safe for him to drive up the A40. As soon as the | helicopter ran out of juice, they lost the Range Rover... | | The Metropolitan plod come out of this really well (not); they wouldn't | lend Thames Valley another helicopter to continue the pursuit. At no time | during those three hours did they apparently think of calling up Range | Rovers, or Landy Discoveries from adjacent areas to ram or box in the Range | Rover; instead they just aimlessly chased it around the area at breakneck | speed. If they couldn't catch it, why on earth were they chasing it and | risking their, the thieves, and many other peoples lives in the process? | | Anyway, the newspapers DIDN'T mention that not all of the police vehicles | were trashed by hitting the Range Rover; at least two of them hit each | other in severely embarrassing circumstances, and a third very expensive | traffic car, provided like the others by the polltax payers of this fair | county, disappeared down a bunker on the 18th fairway at Flackwell Heath | Golf Course while pursuing the Range Rover thereupon. | | What really concerns me, though, is the police justification for the whole | incident. The car sped through a speed trap in Wycombe; fair enough, I | wasn't listening to the chase then. The police also allege, in the paper, | that 'The three occupants of the car could be seen taking drugs while they | were driving along'. I presume that this is designed to lend weight to the | police argument that apprehending these people was worth the risk to life | and limb, not to mention the entire new vehicle budget for Buckinghamshire | this year and next. But all I can say to that is 'B*ll*cks'! The police | couldn't even see their faces well enough to describe them, let alone 'see | them taking drugs'. Unless they were shooting up with their arms out the | window, I don't know how they could have. A Range Rover is four feet above | a cop car anyway, so they'd have a job seeing anything going on inside, | and the way this guy was driving, it was very unlikely he was on anything | except, just conceivably, speed. | | Besides, I was listening to the whole thing and I didn't hear drugs | mentioned once in all of the commentary or discussion from the police in | the two hours I was listening. My conclusion: They're making that bit up. | Inspires confidence doesn't it? | | You couldn't have made a film about this; this is High Wycombe, not | Hazzard County. What exactly do we pay our police for? Is it enough that | they risk their lives, as they clearly were here, or do we require that | they do it competently, and to a purpose, and cost effectively, without | risking our lives as well? Or perhaps it is that they behave like the | Keystone Kops, as they did on Friday morning... And what, dear reader, | would have happened if any really significant crime had been committed in | Bucks on Friday morning, while the ARV, and most of the other Police Cars | were gaily sticking out of the scenery in and around the High Wycombe | area? | | The final result of this sorry debacle, of course, is that the driver of | the Range Rover is going to be a real hero among his friends. After all, | Smokey and the Bandit has nothing on him... even I can't help but have a | sneaking admiration for the little toe rag, so his peer group will have no | trouble. We will now be invaded by hoardes of his pals, probably less able | than him, all keen to be a hero like him. People will be injured, or even | die as a result of all this. No doubt the police will then bleat about how | they need more resources and more powers and more this and more that... how | about new commanders, new training, new objectives and new brains? From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Dec 3 08:56:15 1993 From: Mike Rooth Subject: Re: frames (and their origin) To: marcus@dcs.qmw.ac.uk Date: Fri, 3 Dec 93 14:55:27 GMT Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com In-Reply-To: <9312031259.AA00332@it055.dcs.qmw.ac.uk>; from "marcus@dcs.qmw.ac.uk" at Dec 3, 93 12:59 pm Status: RO V8 engined Land Rovers may well have had removable X members,*but* they werent exported to the US.And is it not therefore possible that a concern like RN wouldnt know about them,and that even if they did,it is entirely possible that due to different engine mounting arangements etc,they were not compatible with the 2.25 109"? Mind you,a demountable gearbox X member is a *bloody* good idea. Cheers Mike Rooth From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Dec 3 10:02:38 1993 From: ranger@ugcs.caltech.edu To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Re: frames (and their origin) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 03 Dec 93 14:55:27 PST." <9312031455.AA23225@hpc.lut.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 93 07:59:15 PST Status: RO In message <9312031455.AA23225@hpc.lut.ac.uk> you write: > Mind you,a demountable gearbox X member is a *bloody* good idea. Demountable gearbox crossmembers are a good idea if the car in engineered properly. (I assume LR got it right) But I have a story about removable gearbox crossmembers on Suburbans. Last year, a bunch of my freinds were taking a Geology course at Caltech. The course included a 5 day field trip into Baja, Mexico. The only people with off road experiance was the prof and the Teaching Assistant and there were 5 vehicles (4 Suburbans and a Land Cruiser). So I was asked to drive. I immediately grabbed the Land Cruiser (to compare it to my SIII 88). It was a fine car, except that two of its tires went flat during the trip. Anyway, on the 4th day, towards dusk, after driving all day on washboard, the lead Suburban stopped due to a flat. (The driver didn't notice before completely shreding the front tire and killing the rim.) So While we were stopped for some reason we popped the hood and looked in. The V8 was leaning back and resting against the firewall. The TA and I were confused for a while. Finally in the failing light we crawled underneigth and found that the removable gearbox crossmember had cracked on one side near the bolt holes. The gearbox was hanging about 4 inches too low. The rest of the group went looking for a place to spend the night. To temporarily fix the problem, I took the winch cable out of the hawse and threaded it over the frame. I manages to thread the cable through a hole in the from to give me the angle to lift the broken side of the crossmeber up. Then I carfully tightened the winch. So in the dark we slowly drove the Suburban the 1 mile to the campsight. The fix held. After dinner an a beer, the TA and I went back to our problem truck. We were still a couple hundred miles south of the US boarder an at least 50 miles from pavement. And we didn't want to abandon the vehicle. The crossmember (from the side looked like this: | | V V -------- | | -----| |----- ^ ^ | | The two arrows on top were the bolts whose holes had broken off. But we had the two outer holes. I notices that the HiJack that we carried had regular spaced holes. So the I beam part of the HiJack was cannibalized. The bolts from the upper/inner holes were used to bolt the I beam to the outer holes (which did not have thier own bolts) The next step was to find some longer bolts to bolt the Ibeam from the HiJack to the frame of the truck. I had failed to bring my tool kit on the trip, so I didn't have the assortment of stuff that I usually carry. So se had to decide what part to cannibalize off the truck to get bolts the right size. The front end of a Suburban has two shock aborbers on each side, and we figured that one was enough. So the whole mess ended up looking like this: frame ==========I==========================I================== I -------- I I | | I I --I--| |--I-- I ====I=======I============I=====I==== Ibeam where the I's are bolts. It held all the way back to Caltech which was a few hundred miles and the road wasn't gentle. The Suburban from which we took the shock absorbers had its remaining shock absorbers explosivly meltdown. (made for a bounce trip). Then another Suburban simultaneouly severed its exhaust pipe under the driver and ripped its battery loose. These were fixed. In the end all of the vehicles got back under their own power. I think that the Suburban should not be used off road. Its frame is exceedingly thin. The metal from the crossmember had cracked. The Suburban was less than 5 years old and suposedly got rountine maintainace by the Caltech mechanics. Next time I'm bringing my SIII 88 with my box of spare parts. Benjmin Smith ranger@ugcs.caltech.edu From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Dec 3 11:17:03 1993 From: marcus@dcs.qmw.ac.uk Subject: Re: Frames: Manufacturers To: caloccia@sw.stratus.com (William Caloccia) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1993 17:13:16 +0000 (GMT) Cc: lro@stratus.com In-Reply-To: <199312022336.SAA13440@tornadic.sw.stratus.com> from "William Caloccia" at Dec 2, 93 06:36:02 pm Content-Type: text Content-Length: 291 Status: RO > >From the Haynes Restoration book, the history (by the folks from Dunsfold) > indicates that some of the early models (very few) had galvanized chassis. > In fact, the first 50 pre-production prototypes had galvanised chassis and the next 1500 had their chassis painted silver. Marcus. From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Dec 3 13:22:52 1993 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Winter From: dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (Dale Desprey) Reply-To: dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (Dale Desprey) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1993 11:34:59 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO Sitting around in the basement drinking lots of beer with Dixon last night. Beat him at arm Wrestling. Havn't lost since I was 10, Should have seen the girl that beat me. Other games - I need info from the U.K. What are the rules in Haxey Hood and the Eton Wall Game. Also equipment and conduct of refs. I think these would be fun in snow. Land Rover cuisine. I like to put on a pot of beans wieners and a touch of maple syrup. Anyone else have any favorite recipes. Driving tip for winter No 3. Snow can be deceiving. A few years back, I was with a friend who wanted to watch the airplanes land. I pull over on what I thought was firm land, as the snow had blown flat over a deep ditch. The next thing I know, is that the land rover is on it's side. We both leave through the drivers side door. I was not angry at all. I thought it was kind of funny, the LR with two of its paws in the air. My friend went off to get a car to pull me out. A pinto, yeah right. A backhoe drove up, and 20 dollars later i was out. Two seconds later, the R.C.M.P. (Royal Cajun Mounted Police - How they get mounted in the first place is a mystery) pull up in a Bronco. As they pull over to the other side of the road, I do not feel it is prudent to warn them. They get stuck, though not nearly as badly as I. (I am a professional, don't try this at home). Picture this, I have the back door open, with a chain between the vechicles, theirs with red lights a flashing, mine pulling it out. If I only had a camera. The never did ask me any questions. Driving tip for winter No 4. Beware of snowmobiles. Nothing like having a 40+ mph projectile come at you, abject fear and eyes as big as dinner plates, shining through a steany helmet. "How did you get here?" they ask, "We didn't expect to see a truck in this deep snow". I respond, "Noone expects the ...." Dale Desprey Ottawa, Ontario -- Dale Desprey, dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From ccray Fri Dec 3 16:32:20 1993 Subject: Sacrificial anodes for rusting LR frames? To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1993 16:32:20 -0600 (CST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1123 Status: RO I have forwarded a couple of LRO e-mails to some of my buddies here in the office (can't remember which conversations) but it generated a conversation regarding the rusting of frames on otherwise long-lasting LR vehicles. The conversation generated a question that I thought I would post to the group: Apparently, a vehicle with a mass the size of a Land Rover generates a certain amount of internal galvanic electricity when exposed to rain, salt roads and salt air. And this internal low-level electricity has to dissipate somewhere. On a normal car, there is lots of steel mass to share in the corrosion or rusting. But on a Land Rover, the metal frame must do the rusting for the whole vehicle. There is some aluminum corrision, but it tends to be less. The question was, why can't some high-tech electronics be introduced to channel that internal electrical galvanic action to some SACRIFICAL ANODES like on boats. A couple of times a year, replace some copper lumps on the car and keep on driving. It sounded like a good idea to me but I figured if it were so good, why didn't someone already think of it? From caloccia@aperture.cac.stratus.com Fri Dec 3 17:00:03 1993 To: ccray@lulu.cc.missouri.edu Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Re: Sacrificial anodes for rusting LR frames? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 03 Dec 93 16:32:20 CST." <9312032232.AA17746@lulu.cc.missouri.edu> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 93 18:02:22 EST From: Bill Caloccia Status: RO > was, why can't some high-tech electronics be introduced to channel > that internal electrical galvanic action to some SACRIFICAL ANODES > like on boats. A couple of times a year, replace some copper > lumps on the car and keep on driving. It sounded like a good idea > to me but I figured if it were so good, why didn't someone already > think of it? Well, the sacraficial anode isn't a high-tech concept, it is a low tech concept, and if you have a good ground, then it works, the boat is in the water, the oil tanks are in the ground, the wave guides at the very large array are also in the ground. You can place sacraficial materials about the objects you want to save, and pray the gods take them first. In New Mexico, they discovered that the gods were greedy and chowed down the sacrafices much quicker than they imagined. the wave guides broke down, and so did their signal, so they went out, got some pipe that had better protection, and put out more sacrafices. With the 1000+ gallon oil tank, you think anyone is going to dig it up every five years to figure if the sacrafice is still there ? no. The boat you check once in a while and replace the anodes -- no biggie. If you want to anchor your Land rover to a grounding rod, and place sacrafices about that, it may work, but I don't think you could rove very far with such a set up... Not to mention the Air plays a large part (mositure, oxidents, polution) in the rusting of your rover, and the galvanic reactions where the aluminum does meet the steel. From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Dec 6 09:06:43 1993 >From: Benjamin Smith To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Cc: CSMITH@crlsv1.research.allied.com Subject: Origional Land Rover Literature Reply-To: ranger@ugcs.caltech.edu Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1993 16:21:09 -0800 From: Ben Smith Status: RO Today in Blacker Hovse we had our annual Secret Santa gift exchange (final exams start on Wednesday and Winter break starts Saturday). At the end one of my frosh handed me something that he had gotten back home. It was Land Rover Literature. One was entitled "Land-Rover Station Wagons" and the other was "a guide to Land-Rover expeditions". The first is dated September 1971 and the latter May 1972. Also included was a piece of paper which said "With Complements of the Rover Company Limited (publicity department) Lode Lane, Solihull, Warwickshire" and dated July 1972. Also included was the origional envalope which these came in. The Station Wagon book is essentally the sales liturature for the Series III, with all the options listed. They were a neat read especially because my Land Rover is a 1972. Where all of this came from... A guy by the name of J.L. Elbert in Clinton, Mo collected all froms of auto sales liturature from 1927 on. Mr. Elbert passed away and some collector aquired his estate. Aparantly all of this is for sale for a price. My friend happened to work for this guy (by the name of Walter Miller) and told Mr. Miller that I had an old Land Rover. So he sent out the stuff (which I'm told is worth ~$100). Anyway, if any of you are interested you can contact Mr. Miller at: Origional Automobile Literature 1900-present Walter Miller 6710 Brooklawn Parkway Syracuse, NY 13211 USA Phone:(315) 432-8282 Fax:(315) 432-8656 His business card states "Over two million pieces of ORIGIONAL literature in stock. World's largest selection of ORIGIONAL U.S. and foreign automobile and truck sales brochures, repair manuals, owner;s manuals, parts books and showroom items. I am a serious buyer and travel to purchase literature." Anyway, I thought all of you might be interested.... -Benjamin Smith ranger@ugcs.caltech.edu 1972 Land Rover Series III 88 From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Dec 6 09:10:00 1993 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Re: Heaters From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1993 00:51:07 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO William Caloccia writes: > Yes, but you probably don't want to take a shovel full of LR parts and > throw 'em down on the ice for traction, eh ? It would make for a slightly bumpy ride wouldn't it? Naw, they would probably stick to my hands when I went to move them... :-) Rgds, -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Dec 6 09:09:34 1993 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Re: Frames: Manufacturers From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1993 00:43:23 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO marcus@dcs.qmw.ac.uk writes: > In fact, the first 50 pre-production prototypes had galvanised chassis and th > next 1500 had their chassis painted silver. 48, not 50 I thought... Rgds, -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Dec 6 09:10:11 1993 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Winter From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1993 00:31:16 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (Dale Desprey) writes: > Sitting around in the basement drinking lots of beer with Dixon last > night. Beat him at arm Wrestling. Havn't lost since I was 10, Should > have seen the girl that beat me. Lots of room temperature beer... So, like, why were you not at the Christmas party? Our friend J. Dowel won the lugnut award for knocking over his log-construction garage wall with his Land Rover, D. Watkins got the towball award. (This guy lives some 450 miles away and flat tows his Series I to the Birthday Party every year) Not a bad party, much better than last years... Of course, RN brought lots of goodies for Al to auction off and give away as door prizes. Rgds, Dixon PS, I nominated you for President. Ted nominated you for Vice-President (yeah, we didn't get our act together...) PPS See the latest issue of LRO? It has an article on North American Land Rovers in it. Besides being slightly interesting on some of the more obscure history (The aluminium that our friends are made of comes from Canada) it is generally way off base. No Land Rovers sold here before 1958? Yeah, right... Maybe if one dropped the "North" off of the title it might begin to have some resemblence to reality. I have seen as many pre-1958 vehicles as I have seen of post 1958 vehicles kicking about... As a guide to Canadian Land Rovers, it sucks. Their numbers for vehicles sold over here are off by some 10,000 versus the total number stated by Land Rover to have sold here between 1949 and 1974. Oh, yeah, that previous article on the NADA 6 cylinder's is also full of errors... -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Dec 6 09:09:47 1993 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Sacrificial anodes for rusting LR frames? From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1993 00:16:43 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO ccray@lulu.cc.missouri.edu writes: > The question > was, why can't some high-tech electronics be introduced to channel > that internal electrical galvanic action to some SACRIFICAL ANODES > like on boats. A couple of times a year, replace some copper > lumps on the car and keep on driving. It sounded like a good idea > to me but I figured if it were so good, why didn't someone already > think of it? You will notice that ships use blocks on the hull to direct galvanic action, but not vehicles. Why? Because a ship is in a slightly salty solution that transmits the electricy fairly efficiently. On a car, the "circuit" is only efficient if the frame is completely wet, completing the circuit. Otherwise without the water to act as a conductor, the blocks of sacrificial metal are isolated most of the time. The concept is well known, it just is not practical. In fact, the most practical method for reducing galvanic action on a Land Rover is wiring it for positive earth. It doesn't make a world of difference, but it does help just a litle. Speaking of that, I now have obtained a spare AC Delco alternator for the Land Rover. We are going to rewire it for positive earth... :-) Rgds, Dixon -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Dec 6 09:06:38 1993 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Winter From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1993 21:03:35 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (Dale Desprey) writes: > Land Rover cuisine. I like to put on a pot of beans wieners and a touch > of maple syrup. Anyone else have any favorite recipes. Beer, beer, and beer? Not a bad recipe, but you forgot to insist that you use real maple syrup. The artificial stuff is horid. Besides, we need to do something about the lake of stuff that has been accumulating, as well as keep Vern's Land Rover in parts from the proceeds of his maple syrup bush. You should have come out to Almonte this weekend. With Ted, George, Dave and myself, we put in his nice shiny blue engine (Ford blue if you were curious), did up all of the bolts, added a couple of brake lines, roped a tarp across the front end, and shoved it out the garage door. With the roof added, it now sits outside, awaiting Dave to do the wiring before it goes off for a nice new coat of paint. Today, after removing Dave's 88, off to the upper fields we went. (by this time we were missing Ted, but had added JJ, a friend of his, and George's brother in law.) Why you might ask? Well, the 109 pick-up has returned to the garage. I first used my 109 to break a path through the weed poplar trees so that George could back the trailer in. The 109 was trapped behind my $25 88", and the remains of the 6 cylinder NADA. The 109 is without rear axle, no wheels on the front axle. Needless to say, a pick-up without engine, gearbox, and rear axle is still a heavy sucker to carry about. It took the six of us a while to lift the 109 onto a trailer, one end at a time to make it easy on us. George intends to put it back together, give it basic wiring, and turn it into his new "Little Earth Pig". Big earth pig would be a better description. He has already replaced, probably, two-thirds of the frame and with surplus parts, including my engine from the 88, it shouldn't take to long. Next weekend is sand-blasting time. Why? He finds an 88 to have inadequate room in the back to move wood about, and render it a useful vehicle to generally move anything about. We will have to see how he makes it perform in the same woods that have been so expensive, in terms of damage, on my 109. His current 88? If the Summer Mini sells (I have two more), I shall probably use it for the summer mud runs... :-) BTW, the 109 is now lodged back in Almonte. The rings are so far gone, it is approaching a two cylinder engine. Top speed is now at about 50mph on the flat, almost a crawl when approaching any sort of incline. When you hit an incline, the crankcase vent really blows a ton of gas (burnt fuel-type gas, not unburnt petrol), A check of what is coming out of the tail pipe shows that it is about as efficient with the Weber as we can get. Oh yeah, when it comes to grounding the system for starting, a ground cable off of the lower bolt of the starter makes a world of difference. Rings are on the way from Merseyside, as well as the first lot of pieces for the proper rebuilt of the original 2.25l engine. Next chore, to see how easy it will be to change the rings with engine in situ... Rgds, Dixon BTW, The fax to Merseyside also asked them to send you, Mr's Rooth and Brandenburg catalogues... Gotta keep them on their toes... -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Dec 6 12:21:22 1993 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 93 10:16:01 PST From: growl@terminous.Eng.Sun.COM (William L. Grouell) To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Subject: Re: Frames: Manufacturers Cc: lro@stratus.com Status: RO Dixon, Do you get punched in the nose very often? And if not, why not? bg > From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Sat Dec 4 04:56:40 1993 > To: lro@stratus.com > Subject: Re: Frames: Manufacturers > Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) > Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada > Content-Length: 294 > X-Lines: 13 > > marcus@dcs.qmw.ac.uk writes: > > > In fact, the first 50 pre-production prototypes had galvanised chassis and th > > next 1500 had their chassis painted silver. > > 48, not 50 I thought... > > Rgds, > > > -- > dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca > FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada > From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Dec 6 12:14:04 1993 From: leefi@microsoft.com To: lro@stratus.com Subject: 1993 Camel Trophy, ESPN, 12/12/93 3:30pm EST Date: Mon, 06 Dec 93 10:10:48 Status: RO the Pacific Coast Rover Club's newsletter claims that the Camel Trophy will be on ESPN (US cable sports television network), for those of you that get it. check listings to confirm, so you won't be as dissapointed if this rumor is false... __ Lee Fisher, leefi@microsoft.com, +1.206.936.8621 From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Dec 7 06:02:09 1993 From: marcus@dcs.qmw.ac.uk Subject: Re: Frames: Manufacturers To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1993 11:36:09 +0000 (GMT) Cc: lro@stratus.com In-Reply-To: <13q1Dc3w165w@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca> from "dixon kenner" at Dec 4, 93 00:43:23 am Content-Type: text Content-Length: 396 Status: RO > > marcus@dcs.qmw.ac.uk writes: > > > In fact, the first 50 pre-production prototypes had galvanised chassis and th > > next 1500 had their chassis painted silver. > > 48, not 50 I thought... > > Rgds, > > > -- > dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca > FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada > Whoops, bit of a faux-pas there, you're right - 48 it was! Marcus. From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Dec 7 13:51:26 1993 From: ccray@lulu.cc.missouri.edu Subject: Re: frames oiling and paint refinishing To: caloccia@sw.stratus.com (William Caloccia) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1993 13:47:35 -0600 (CST) Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com In-Reply-To: <199312022351.SAA13498@tornadic.sw.stratus.com> from "William Caloccia" at Dec 2, 93 06:51:16 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 4897 Status: RO > Ok, anyone out there know about chemical paint stripping (like for body > panels) ? > > I noticed that the undersides of most of my Rover's aluminum panels are > unfinished -- any suggestions on how to treat them and protect them ? > > (I understand the basic paint process for Aluminum or Galvanized includes > preparing or 'etching' the metal to it will take the primer well. > > I think this round I'll use PPG paints instead of Dupont, but I'm not sure. > > -- bill > Here is how I paint my aluminum parts. I am pretty satisfied with the technique, but of course, would welcome advise or feedback. (I went home at noon and got the exact product names and numbers). -- Take the part off the car -- I try to batch these with enough parts to make it worth the while. This is why it good to have extra parts to repair and then bolt on later. -- Utilize "aircraft stripper" to remove the paint. This is the actual brand name of a paint remover sold at auto paint stores here. It is 90percent methylene chloride and formulated for "..professional use only..". I brush it on and let it set for about 20 minutes. When soaked, I use a wire bush to scrape thru the soft paint. Sometimes you are lucky and can get 2 coats per application, but often it is one coat of stripper per each coat of paint. This stuff will also remove tar and "bondo" plastic filler in the process so I do the back side too to get rid of the tar. "bondo" comes off slowly and takes several passes local to the area of bondo repair. This is a good job for a warm weekend afternoon as you end up getting a little wet in the rinsing process. -- I then heat and beat out any minor dents. The heat is to anneal the metal so that it won't be as hard and brittle for the hammering and straightening process. -- Now, the part is bare aluminum with only minor flecks of paint. I now "tickle" the aluminum part with a sandblaster. The big fenders, etc I do in the driveway. The smaller parts I use a blast cabinet. You are not supposed to sandblast aluminum -- work hardens it and the heat generated by completely removing the paint by blasting will warp the metal. But I only "tickle" the last bit of paint off the stripped aluminum. This also cleans out the areas of aluminum corrosion at this time leaving the clean pitted aluminum. I move around and make sure I don't get any heat buildup. When finished, there is a good rough surface for proper paint adhesion. -- I use some Dupont products to anodize the aluminum. It is Dupont #225S stepa aluminum prefinishing system (cleaner) and Dupont #226S stepb aluminum prefinishing system (conversion coating). The cleaner is a mild acid and the conversion coating contains some salts. You paint this on with a brush, let it set for about 5 minutes and hose it off. This stuff is expensive at $10 per quart and you use more than you'd think you would. At this time, the aluminum part has a light golden glow to it. -- I use a fiberglass filler to fill in the dents left after hammering. "Evercoat Metal 2 Metal aluminum filled metal body repair: polyester resin & hardener" I don't use "bondo" cause it is not as flexible when cured and it is not waterproof. This is normal bodywork, but the part is off the car and on the garage floor. Got to get that bench cleaned off. I then use "featherfill catalyzed polyester primer surfacer by evercoat" to fill the minor sanding marks and pinholes. This stuff sprays on thick and wet sands off. -- Maybe another pass at the anodizing step to get the parts that were hit with sanding paper. -- Next, I hang the part over a line I have stretched between the walls of the garage. A couple of coats of #616s Dupont Variprime self etching primer (enamel) and #616s variprime converter. This primer is two-part and drys smooth. The self etching is described as useful for painting aluminum and galvanized or zinc parts. I figure the self-etching part associated with the paint and the aluminum anodizing is a double wammy and should produce a tight paint with no corrosion under the paint. -- Finally, a top coat of Dupont Centari Acrylic enamel using 8022s mid termperature reducer. I put on three thick coats. -- Let it cure for awhile and be very careful when bolting it back on. It is frustrating to slip a wrench and introduce a scratch. The parts really look good with a complete coat of color. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ray Harder Columbia, Missouri 314-882-2000 - 61 SIIa 88 (LULU) - 66 SIIa 88 (rebuild project) - 69 SIIa 88 (parts) - 87 RR (wife's) - 80 MGB - xx ------------------------------------------------------------------- From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Dec 8 05:59:19 1993 From: Mike Rooth Subject: Re: Tires again To: dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Date: Wed, 8 Dec 93 11:57:25 GMT Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com In-Reply-To: ; from "Dale Desprey" at Dec 7, 93 6:45 pm Status: RO I'm not sure Dale,but I think you have answered your own question. If you look at the "popular" off-road cross-plies,and compare them with their radial counterparts,the former always seem to look more aggressive. Compare,say the Firestone SAT,with the BFG range of radials and you see what I mean.Of course,having said that,you can no doubt produce any number of examples to refute that statement,so I'm reluctant to be *too* pedantic about it:-) Its just that looking through the LRO it would seem that big lugs are only present on cross-plies and certain members of the Royal Family,but not on radials.I'm certainly changing to radials when I need new covers,if only to get rid of on road wander. Cheers Mike Rooth From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Dec 8 00:59:23 1993 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Re: Frames: Manufacturers From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1993 22:11:01 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO growl@terminous.Eng.Sun.COM (William L. Grouell) writes: > Do you get punched in the nose very often? And if not, why not? Generally others do take a good swing at me. Most often I do have a good counter punch whether hit or not. Here I see a good swing, and I will grant you a bloody nose, 'Tis pretty easy to grant as I accept the forty eight hits in total. However, please accept the fifty crows I'm shoving up your respective nostrils in kind that you must accept in kind. Want to quibble over numbers? I have the tissue paper that you most dearly require... Let's call it quits before I decide to cite page 316 of "Land Rover, the unbeatable 4x4" for starters and shove the extra two into your nose... I may be wrong from time to time, and I accept when I may be in error. I learn from my mistakes (recorded in volumes in mail), unlike yourself, and use these lessons to be more informed in the future, unlike yourself... Rgds, Dixon "I don't have a pre-production model yet., buty I'll have a Series I before you.." BTW, Enough being polite. Rover intended to build fifty, but didn't build that many. They built 47 or 48 of them because the last few were sacrificed for parts. (48 is the accepted numner) FYI, Twenty five were finished by the official launching. two were at Amsterdam (one LHD and one RHD) The 1948-49 model year records 48 vehicles. Either cite sources to dispute in this or shut up. This isn't this first time you have taken shots at me, and no doubt the last. BTW2 Got appointed to Editor of the OVLR Newsletter this evening. Care to contribute? I'll be blunt and clear here. A lot of information passes in this mailing list that others would love to see and learn from. With permission from the posters I intends to extract portions for the newsletter. I hope you would grant me the opportunity to pass on your wisdom.,, Others I know will... -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Dec 8 00:59:25 1993 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Tires again From: dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (Dale Desprey) Reply-To: dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (Dale Desprey) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1993 18:45:30 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO I have read the last few postings on tires, some people have radials, others bias ply. I go off road with a friend that has a Jimmy, with not very aggressive looking radials. When he gets stuck in the mud, he just backs up and tries again, and is successful. I don't understand it. My tires are bias ply with an aggressive tread. I don't get stuck as easily as he does, but when I do, I'm stuck. Winch time. Those lugs of mine have dug me down. I noticed the same thing at a loose gravel shore once, no floatation. One club member has been going around with radials, in the mud and not getting stuck, while other LRs equiped with bias ply do. (I was not present to see this feat, so I am still skeptical) I need new tires, but I won't part with money until I know whether it's radials or bias again. Dale Desprey -- Dale Desprey, dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Dec 9 04:38:25 1993 To: lro@stratus.com From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andy Woodward) Subject: Re: Frames and names Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1993 10:38:22 Cc: azw@aber.ac.uk Status: RO >For us North American owners that don't live >with the evil salt on the roads, what is Wayoyl? ^x >Is that the commercial name and is it available >in the US? If not, what is it made with? It is a turps (or diesel) soluble wax which can be sprayed on/into the chassis. It dries tacky and will automaticaly reseal small stone chips. I did my 90 fully when I got it 10 years ago, and I reinject the chassis every 5 years and quickly spray the outside of the chassis every autumn (take about 1/2hr including getting cleaned up afterwards). I have no rust...... From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Dec 9 04:05:11 1993 From: Mike Rooth Subject: Waxoyl To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Date: Thu, 9 Dec 93 10:02:07 GMT Status: RO The name of the product is Waxoyl,not Wayoyl(or was that a typo). I understood it *is* in fact available in the States,but for the life of me I cant remember why!Its solvent is what we call White Spirit or Turpentine Substitute,the stuff that is used to thin domestic paint, *not* a strange Celtic deity,any more than Waxoyl has anything to do with Popeye. When sprayed on steel,using the kit provided,which consists of a drum which is pressurised to 40psi with the pump they sell you(it has a safety valve)the rust turns black,and a clag resistant surface is left. The stuff doesnt dry out,and can "creep" to fill "wounded" areas. An attachment to the spray lance is provided so that you can drill holes and use it to get *inside* box sections such as chassis rails and outriggers.After use,you wash out the spray kit with white spirit. Highly recommended. Cheers Mike Rooth From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Dec 8 22:36:32 1993 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 93 21:31:53 MST From: rhcaldw@nma.mnet.uswest.com ( ROY CALDWELL ) To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Frames and names Status: RO For us North American owners that don't live with the evil salt on the roads, what is Wayoyl? Is that the commercial name and is it available in the US? If not, what is it made with? Second thing, If you haven't sent in the name for your Rover, or however you refer to it, please do. I am going to compile all the names and genders that I received and post it. Naturally is means nothing, but is kinda fun. Roy From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Dec 8 19:11:52 1993 From: POLSTAB@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu Date: Wed, 08 Dec 93 18:37:11 CST To: ccray@lulu.cc.missouri.edu Cc: CALOCCIA@SW.STRATUS.COM, LRO@TRANSFER.STRATUS.COM Subject: Re: frames oiling and paint refinishing In-Reply-To: ccray@lulu.cc.missouri.edu -- Tue, 7 Dec 1993 13:47:35 -0600 (CST) Status: RO >Here is how I paint my aluminum parts. I am pretty satisfied >with the technique, but of course, would welcome advise >or feedback. (I went home at noon and got the exact >product names and numbers). I have been in Ray's garage! It's covered with Rover stuff. So is his basement. The driveway is one of the better Rover body-frame restoration shops in the Midwest. I can't imagine, however, worrying about scratching a Rover. My '71 IIA was hand painted once. The streaks of blue paint increase the Rover's aerodynamics and probably improve the gas milage to 5 MPG. By the way, this blue beast hauled sand bags in a small Missouri river town during the recent floods. It was a sight to see. Up to the axes in river mud, loaded to the top with sand bags. Cheers. Thad Brown 1971 Series IIA 88" Hard Top. From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Dec 8 18:11:18 1993 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 93 16:08:00 PST From: growl@terminous.Eng.Sun.COM (William L. Grouell) To: lro@stratus.com, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Subject: Re: Enough being polite. Status: RO >Want to quibble over numbers? No, and that was the point. 50 is close enough to 48 for those of us who don't want to quibble over numbers. >Enough being polite. Missed that part. R, bg BTW, do you have the '49 plymouth bumper duct taped to the rear grab handles yet? From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Wed Dec 8 14:55:46 1993 To: lro@stratus.com Cc: M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk Subject: Re: Tires again From: dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (Dale Desprey) Reply-To: dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (Dale Desprey) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1993 13:36:58 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO Mike Rooth writes: > I need new covers,if only to get rid of on road wander. > Cheers > Mike Rooth > Another thing about the bias plys that i wouldn't miss if I went to radials. In the cold weather, as the LR sits, the tires develop flat spots. When you hit pavement, you get a thwump, thwump, thwump sound and vibration. I takes a few miles for them to heat up enough to round out. I will take a look at BFG products. I wonder If it was a good idea to get rid of my 15" rims. I am sure that 16" tires are going to be more expensive. Thanks for the info, Mike. Dale Desprey -- Dale Desprey, dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Dec 9 14:46:02 1993 From: Mark V Grieshaber Subject: LPS3 anticorrosion spray vs Waxoyl To: land-rover-owner@stratus.com (land rover list) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 93 14:42:09 CST Status: RO I have no experience with Waxoyl, but I am struck by the similarity of the description given to another anticorrosion product that I *have* used extensively. It is called LPS3, put out by LPS corporation. The way I know about LPS products (they have LPS1, LPS2, etc: each is different) is from my Airframe and Powerplant mechanic days - these products are used extensively in the aircraft industry (as are other anticorrosion products as well). It comes in 12oz spray cans, quarts, gallons, and (for really big Land Rovers) 55 gallon drums. It sprays on as a medium thick liquid (like, um, runny latex paint). The solvent evaporates fairly quickly, leaving a soft waxy translucent brown coating. It also has resealing properties to self repair minor scratches and such. I have been using LPS3 from spray cans on all my vehicles for several years now, and have noted *ZERO* further corrosion on treated areas. I use it particularly on inside panel surfaces (doors, fenders, hoods, etc), and under the bed of the pickup. On protected metal surfaces (inside door panels, for example) it seems to last indefinitely. I retreat spray exposed areas (underneath pickup bed) every year or two and that seems to do fine. The literature indicates corrosion preventive chemistry (ie, beyond a simple moisture or air barrier), but does not elaborate on exactly *what* composition or activity is present (trade secret?). I have an 800 number for LPS at home, if anyone wants it. I have used it to find a local distributor of their products when I needed it in a hurry (looks like any industrial supply house probably carries it). I note that Harbor Freight advertises the 12oz spray cans of all the LPS products for really good prices. Locally, I paid $6.29 per can, and I think Harbor Freight advertised them at $4.50 each. Another aviation industry corrosion preventive I like a lot is Black Bear Par-al-ketone. Thick dark brown sticky wonderful stuff. Treated the bottom inside of my Datsun doors with this stuff years ago (one treatment), and they are still in perfect shape - not a trace of rust anywhere! Now my Land Rover (no name yet, a four year old friend suggested "Rhinoceros" :) is not mobile yet, but before it goes on the road, I'm going to use a lot of LPS3 on it... Obligatory disclaimer: I have nothing to do with LPS corporation, I just like their products, will continue to buy them in the future for all my vehicles, and feel comfortable recommending their products. Mark mvgrie@shute.monsanto.com From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Dec 9 13:24:56 1993 From: phhester@lenexa.lenexa.ingr.com (Paul Hester) Subject: waxoyl To: lro@transfer.stratus.com (Rover Owners) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 93 13:24:45 CST Reply-To: phhester@lenexa.lenexa.ingr.com Status: RO So, does anyone know who in the states offers Waxoyl? or is merseyside as good a deal as any? Paul -- ******************* phhesterph@ingr.com ****************** * * * Paul H. Hester | "I know that you believe you * * Project Manager | understand what you think was * * VOICE 913.599.1250 | said, but I am not sure you * * FAX 913.599.0750 | realize that what you heard * * Mailstop: KSLEN | is not what was meant." * * * ******************* phhesterph@ingr.com ****************** From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Dec 9 13:19:58 1993 From: phhester@lenexa.lenexa.ingr.com (Paul Hester) Subject: Re: Tires again To: dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Date: Thu, 9 Dec 93 13:18:55 CST Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com (Rover Owners) Reply-To: phhester@lenexa.lenexa.ingr.com In-Reply-To: ; from "Dale Desprey" at Dec 8, 93 1:36 pm Status: RO Dale writes: > I will take a look at BFG products. I wonder If it was a good idea to > get rid of my 15" rims. I am sure that 16" tires are going to be more > expensive. > I'm not sure of price differentials between the 15 & 16 inch, but the nice thing about 16 is that you can get a higher profile tire (and without having to do so by getting a tire too wide). For instance, you can get a 215/85 or 235/85 in 16 but not in a 15, they only come in a 75 profile rating. Paul -- ******************* phhesterph@ingr.com ****************** * * * Paul H. Hester | "I know that you believe you * * Project Manager | understand what you think was * * VOICE 913.599.1250 | said, but I am not sure you * * FAX 913.599.0750 | realize that what you heard * * Mailstop: KSLEN | is not what was meant." * * * ******************* phhesterph@ingr.com ****************** From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Dec 9 10:56:40 1993 From: Mike Rooth Subject: Re: Frames and names To: azw@aberystwyth.ac.uk (Andy Woodward) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 93 16:52:25 GMT Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com In-Reply-To: ; from "Andy Woodward" at Dec 9, 93 10:38 am Status: RO Andy, How did you go about ensuring that the chassis was/is completely covered by Waxoyl inside?I did mine outside last year,but have yet to do the inside,and any hints you may have would be welcome. Also,have you any feel for its lasting properties externally,ie is the respray yearly a dire necessity or better safe than sorry. Do you thin the stuff at all or use it as it comes? Cheers Mike Rooth From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Dec 9 10:46:25 1993 From: Mike Rooth Subject: Wet,Wet,Wet To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Date: Thu, 9 Dec 93 16:39:55 GMT Status: RO The recent torrential downpours over here,aided by a full gale, prompt me to ask this question.Does *anybody* have a fully watertight Land Rover.And we can leave out Andy's Ninety,'cos its so young he can take it back if it leaks:-) Mine lets wet in less now than when I bought it,due to the PO htinking he didnt *really* need all those nuts and bolts to hold the top on,and the judicious application of mastic to cure the leaks in the back.BUT.....I still get water in between the door tops and bottoms,despite the mastic.And occasional mysterious drips in the back which for the life of me I cant trace.Its almost as though looking at(or for) them makes them go into hiding. Oh,yes,and I dont count the Ottawa Valley mob playing at submarines, either.......:-) Cheers Mike Rooth From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Dec 9 09:52:59 1993 X-Authentication-Warning: tornadic.sw.stratus.com: Host localhost.stratus.com didn't use HELO protocol To: rhcaldw@nma.mnet.uswest.com ( ROY CALDWELL ) Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com, caloccia@tornadic.sw.stratus.com Subject: Re: Frames and names In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 08 Dec 93 21:31:53 MST." <9312090431.AA21338@mtnoca.helena_noc> Date: Thu, 09 Dec 93 10:47:32 -0500 From: William Caloccia Status: RO > For us North American owners that don't live > with the evil salt on the roads, what is Wayoyl? Waxoyl > Is that the commercial name and is it available > in the US? If not, what is it made with? yes, it is imported From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Dec 9 16:35:45 1993 To: Mark V Grieshaber Cc: land-rover-owner@stratus.com (land rover list) Subject: Re: LPS3 anticorrosion spray vs Waxoyl In-Reply-To: mvgrie's message of Thu, 09 Dec 93 12:42:09 -0800. <9312092042.AA29734@shute.monsanto.com> X-Face: ;F1i:c.5WjM"fi5"DpJ_)/9l,$3ij12_"J7catfSLlS3pI8x~_'d-\{;OzSY+n,r/tf )-j:)z&8exw9:)^!TcW]Sq; From: "Chris Kent Kantarjiev" Status: RO There's a German company called W\"urth that makes a line of chemicals and sprays. I recently bought a can of stuff that is intended for door bottoms and other fairly inaccessible places. It's apparently mostly liquid wax with some corrosion inhibitors. Sounds a lot like it fits somewhere between LPS3 and Waxoyl. I bought it from Griot's Garage, a fairly overpriced catalog place with cool but expensive things. There must be a cheaper supplier. From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Dec 9 19:46:03 1993 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Wet,Wet,Wet From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1993 17:19:57 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO Mike Rooth writes: > The recent torrential downpours over here,aided by a full gale, > prompt me to ask this question.Does *anybody* have a fully > watertight Land Rover. > Oh,yes,and I dont count the Ottawa Valley mob playing at submarines, > either.......:-) Of course not... The water has to have places to pour out of... I can think of a couple that are waterproof on top, but with ventilated footwells water enters from a mydrid other spots. Door seals are generally in poor condition over here, and at the cost of replacing the pieces (even in the UK) I think that they will continue to leak for quite a while. BTW, just missed the deal of the year. Three Series I engines for free. Anoother OVLR member got there first... :-) Rgds, Dixon -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Dec 9 19:46:17 1993 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Wet,Wet,Wet From: dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (Dale Desprey) Reply-To: dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (Dale Desprey) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1993 17:35:50 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO Mike Rooth writes: > Mine lets wet in less now than when I bought it,due to the PO > htinking he didnt *really* need all those nuts and bolts to hold > the top on,and the judicious application of mastic to cure the > leaks in the back.BUT.....I still get water in between the door > tops and bottoms,despite the mastic.And occasional mysterious > drips in the back which for the life of me I cant trace.Its almost > as though looking at(or for) them makes them go into hiding. I have a very leaky hard top. The sealant along the top where the aluminum meets the galvanized, is brittle and missing in places. I also have a mystery leak at the back. There is a product, sold by eastwood tools, called brushable seam sealer, made by Tremco. This seems perfect for this kind of application. I plan to buy some, and will let you know how it turns out. The canvas top I have is watertight. Ok I guess I'll tell you how I got it that way. heat up one can of floor wax (cheap) until it melts. Brush on. Not too thick, or when it dries it looks as if someone put foloor wax on your roof. I wouldn't do that with a new roof, but it works on my old one. If anyone tries this, do it where noone can see you. I can tell you that I felt silly brushing this stuff on. Dale Desprey -- Dale Desprey, dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Dec 9 18:25:23 1993 From: Mark J Keenan Subject: Re: Wet,Wet,Wet To: lro@stratus.com (Landy List) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1993 08:22:22 +0800 (WST) In-Reply-To: <9312091639.AA23022@hpc.lut.ac.uk> from "Mike Rooth" at Dec 9, 93 04:39:55 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 678 Status: RO My 74 109 used to leak on my accelerator foot, thru the top of the door onto my shoulder and on my head thru a non-stock air-vent in the roof.....great when travelling thru the wet in Queensland! She also used to leak in the rear where our mattress and camping gear was located and *if that wasn't enough* she also taught our perfectly waterproof tent how to drown us as well. Cheers Mark. ***************************** Mark Keenan - mkeenan@uniwa.uwa.edu.au MEngSc Student in the Mech & Mat Engineering Department University of Western Australia, Nedlands WA 6009 Landrover - Noisy uncomfortable vehicles for noisy uncomfortable people ***************************** From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Dec 10 03:49:54 1993 From: Mike Rooth Subject: Re: Wet,Wet,Wet To: daryl@menzies.su.edu.au (Daryl Webb) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 93 9:46:53 GMT Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com In-Reply-To: <9312100153.AA06699@sun1>; from "Daryl Webb" at Dec 10, 93 11:21 am Status: RO Daryl Two solutions occur. One,wear Drizabone and wellies, Two,there may be a little hole in the bulkhead.Mine drips in over the throttle pedal,and my footwells are,shall we say,somewhat lacking in integrity?Also,there *was* I beleive,once,a mudsheild on that side too... Cheers Mike From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Dec 10 04:40:26 1993 To: lro@stratus.com From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andy Woodward) Subject: Re: Frames and names Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1993 10:41:28 Cc: azw@aber.ac.uk Status: RO >How did you go about ensuring that the chassis was/is completely >covered by Waxoyl inside?I did mine outside last year,but have yet >to do the inside,and any hints you may have would be welcome. You can get a 'special nozzle' for the Waxoyl pressure sprayer. It's basically a long tube with a nail in the end! The nail ensures a circular fan of spray, so you just insert the tube in all the holes you can find, and spray as you pull it out. >Also,have you any feel for its lasting properties externally,ie >is the respray yearly a dire necessity or better safe than sorry. Very much better safe than sorry. After the initial spray ten years ago, my annual sprays are very quick and cursory. The chassis is still pristine despite all the winter salt. It only gets washed once a year, pre spray. Whenever I am doing anything to the vehicle, even checkingthe tyre pressures, I carry a hand held plant sprayer full of Waxoyl and squirt anything I see that even looks like rust...... >Do you thin the stuff at all or use it as it comes? To spray it properly at ambient temperature you need to thin it by at least a factor of two (I use deisel). But for the first coating, I'd leave it full thickness and dump the pressure can in a bucket of hot water to thin it. That way you get the thickest coat. Also, you can get clear (for posers to apply to their WangeWovas) and black. Get the black. It is thicker, and dries much more tacky than the clear, so it fills stone chips better. From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Dec 10 04:46:32 1993 To: lro@stratus.com From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andy Woodward) Subject: Re: Wet,Wet,Wet Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1993 10:48:01 Cc: azw@aber.ac.uk Status: RO >prompt me to ask this question.Does *anybody* have a fully >watertight Land Rover.And we can leave out Andy's Ninety,'cos >its so young he can take it back if it leaks:-) The front right roof leaks, but not the front left. What is the official LR part number of this leak, so I can allow the passenger to enjoy the experience to the full? From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Thu Dec 9 19:54:35 1993 From: daryl@menzies.su.edu.au (Daryl Webb) Subject: Re: Wet,Wet,Wet To: lro@stratus.com (Land Rover Owners Group) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 93 11:21:55 CST Status: RO Mark J Keenan writes: >My 74 109 used to leak on my accelerator foot, thru the top of the door >onto my shoulder .....great when travelling thru the wet in Queensland! Yes, YEs, YES, But where does the bloody water get in to drip ever so monotonously onto ones accelerator foot. God it drives me crazy !!!! My old '66 never did this, leaked everywhere else though. But the '82, OH GOD. The best I can figure is that it gets in around the door seal at the point where the winscreen joins the body, but I cant seem to hold back the tide. With the Wet soon upon us I would like to try to stem the flow just a little this year. It can be a bit embarrassing to have water run out when you open the door. On a different note, do I understand that some of the Ottawa mob have been involved in Ah, deep water exercises ?? Due to a slight (?) mis-calculation I once had the pleasure of filling my rover to the roofline with muddy creek water and fresh-water crayfish. The only thing I forgot to drain was the wiper motor. It worked immediately after the incident as we drove home in the rain afterwards. However 8 mths later it had stopped. Still full of now very rusty water. If you have had to drain your gauges, dont forget the wiper motor. Daryl Webb (daryl@menzies.su.edu.au) '82 Land-Rover SIII stage I V8 county wagon _-*_|\ / \ "Oil leak officer, What oil leak ?" \_.--._/ Darwin Australia (Kakadu country) "Top end Down-under" v From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Dec 10 08:53:08 1993 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 93 14:50:02 GMT From: u10122@sdsc.edu (dushin russell) To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: unsubscribe me Status: RO From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Dec 10 08:52:10 1993 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 93 14:49:23 GMT From: u10122@sdsc.edu (dushin russell) To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: leavin' Status: RO Folks- My account has recently been shifted to another machine, and I no longer receive lro listings......consequently I suspect you are all getting my returned lro mail (sorry for that). I'd unsubscribe from the old address and resubscribe from the new one except the new account is due to expire at the end of the year.....hence, I must bid you all a fond farewell (but I'll be back) and wish you and yours the warmest and safest of holidays. Nige sends his love to Lulu, the Swamp Beast, the Ol' Ditch Pig (not the ex-), and everyone else. Cheers until the new year, rdushin/nigel ps Bill, I'll try to unsubscribe in a separate message, but I am unsure if it will work because my old address has expired (I used to be "u10122@y1.sdsc.edu", the IP address for y1 was 132.249.10.1 in case I am unsuccessful). From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Dec 10 08:38:14 1993 From: ccray@lulu.cc.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Wet,Wet,Wet To: dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1993 08:35:17 -0600 (CST) Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com In-Reply-To: from "Dale Desprey" at Dec 9, 93 05:35:50 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 817 Status: RO > The canvas top I have is watertight. Ok I guess I'll tell you how I got > it that way. heat up one can of floor wax (cheap) until it melts. Brush > on. Not too thick, or when it dries it looks as if someone put foloor > wax on your roof. I wouldn't do that with a new roof, but it works on > my old one. If anyone tries this, do it where noone can see you. I can > tell you that I felt silly brushing this stuff on. I sprayed my boat cover with Thompsons WaterSeal. It says on the label it is good for spraying canvas. I used a wagner hand-held airless paint sprayer and did not thin it or anything. Water beads up on it now and I expect to re-do it every couple of years. Since it didn't look like a shiny floor, nobody has commented about it either way. (charge =$0.02 -- add it to my bill). From cak@parc.xerox.com Fri Dec 10 12:32:26 1993 To: ccray@lulu.cc.missouri.edu Cc: dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca, lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Re: Wet,Wet,Wet In-Reply-To: ccray's message of Fri, 10 Dec 93 06:35:17 -0800. <9312101435.AA16276@lulu.cc.missouri.edu> X-Face: ;F1i:c.5WjM"fi5"DpJ_)/9l,$3ij12_"J7catfSLlS3pI8x~_'d-\{;OzSY+n,r/tf )-j:)z&8exw9:)^!TcW]Sq; From: "Chris Kent Kantarjiev" Status: RO Thompson's Water Seal is a good answer, but beware that there are two formulas of the stuff, one of which is no good for fabric (and says so on the can). Which is sold near you apparently depends on the vagaries of air pollution laws! From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Dec 10 12:03:59 1993 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 93 09:57:10 -0800 From: "TeriAnn Wakeman" Reply-To: "TeriAnn Wakeman" To: ccray@lulu.cc.missouri.edu, dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca, lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Re: Wet,Wet,Wet Status: RO You guys make me feel like I'm afraid to get the Green Rover's feet wet. The deepest I've ever had the Green Rover was during our floods of '81 and '82 when the creek going under the 1/4 mile driveway to the slough decided to become part of the slough. I don't know how deep I was wading her but the water line was half way up the seat box. At that time I measured the height of the distributer off the ground and waded out into the drive way to make sure the distributer would still be above water then ether drove to or from work. One evening I decided the driveway was deeper than the distributer by about a foot, parked her on the street side and waded home. Well it was raining hard that night and there was a strong wind coming off the ocean.... The winch switch shorted out from the water and started reeling in the small amount of cable wraped around the top of the Roo bar. It also reeled in the roo bar. When the hook at the end of cable cought on the winch rollers, the motor stalled and mented the battery clamp. Other than that, th only real problem I had was that soon thereafter the aftermarket steel wheel cylinders that I had installed ceased to work. The pistons rusted solid to the cylinders. I don't use steel wheel cylinders any more. Take care and don't go fishing inside your Rovers. TeriAnn TeriAnn Wakeman One of these days, I'll be old enough that twakeman@apple.com people will stop calling me crazy and start LINK: TWAKEMAN calling me eccentric. 408-974-2344 TR3A - TS75519L, MGBGT - GHD4U149572G, 109 - 164000561 From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Dec 10 12:45:41 1993 From: Mark V Grieshaber Subject: LPS and Harbor Freight 800 numbers To: land-rover-owner@stratus.com (land rover list) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 93 11:56:42 CST Status: RO In response to several indications of interest, here is the contact information I have for both LPS Laboratories and Harbor Freight: LPS Laboratories, Inc. Tucker, GA 30085-5052 (800) 241-8334 Harbor Freight Tools Voice: (800) 423-2567 Fax : (805) 388-0760 Harbor Freight has the following LPS products listed: LPS1 Greaseless Lubricant $4.49/11oz spray can (seems much like WD40, I've not used this particular product). LPS3 Heavy Duty Corrosion Inhibitor $4.49/11oz spray can (wonderful stuff, highly recommended). Cold Galvanize $6.49 spray can (size unknown) (hear it's good, I'm planning on trying it in the future). Electro Contact Cleaner $9.99 spray can (size unknown) (have some, haven't used it yet). If you are not familiar with Harbor Freight, they carry lots of tools and supplies. Some really great stuff, lots of incredibly cheaply made junk. Be careful. Some of their prices are great, others are easily beat locally. Regarding the Black Bear "Par-al-ketone" corrosion inhibitor - I got my quart can from a friend, but I have seen it advertised in several aircraft parts catalogs, aircraft building supply catalogs, etc. Before my '69 88" goes back on the road, a lot of LPS3 will go into it. The LPS3 can I have at home (last of eight...) claims that it lasts two years in exposed conditions, whatever they think those are. Mark mvgrie@shute.monsanto.com From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Sun Dec 12 23:16:57 1993 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Weekend work, and I guess fun... From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1993 21:16:44 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO Well Dale, it looks like Ted needs a new starter. He had to crank start it again this morning. Missed you out in the wilderness. We half expected you to show up. Work continued on Georges' latest project, his big Earth Pig. The frame now has its second coat of Tremclad upon it, the bulk head primed and painted black. We dissassembled the rear diff because it had a very suspicious bump on the back plate. In fact we figured that it had partially exploded inside. Taking it apart we found that all was fine. It must have been a chunk of ice one cold morning that made the indentation. We did take the entire thing apart and did find one twisted half shalf and the flanged in poor shape, the races pitted, the roller bearings it pitiful shape. We put the saveable parts aside for future use and went in search of another diff. So off to the upper field we went, portable generator and grinder in hand, and an arsenal of tools (actually a poor use of the word arsenal. The word is from the 14th century Rupublic of Venice, where they called their great shipyard "Arsenal", from the Arabic word "House of Construction", but enough trivia though Georges' place resembles a Land Rover Arsenal). We extracted the rear diff from my spare 88 and brought it down. Happily the sun was out, so Dave, George and I did not suffer to much in the -10c weather. The diff is actually a 109 diff, so it will be appropriate on the 109 pick-up George is rebuilding. Apart from that, I spent time cleaning parts of my engine that I am going to rebuild, and Dave is rebuuilding all of the parts for his dual braking system avec booster. The major hold up there is trying to get the plastic reservoir off the master cylinder without damaging it. The Swamp Beast will not start, though there seems to be power. Time to add a second ground cable from the lower starter bolt to the frame. Using a booster cable between those two points makes power delivery much more efficient, so I guess next weekend that will be done. Getting rid of the six foot ground cable for the battery to frame is also scheduled. Rgds, Dixon BTW, the kid came by Georges' who wants to buy my Mini. More cash to pick up some more Land Rovers... :-) :-) :-) -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Sun Dec 12 15:20:05 1993 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Ice racing From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1993 09:59:48 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (Dale Desprey) writes: > The diesel started today, must be at least -10c. and without even being > plugged in. Ted's patrol wouldn't start from all of the rain the other day. It did go with the crank... :-) > Winter driving tip #5 Neat... To bad there is no ice racing around here right now after last years little incident. They should never have moved it from the Quebec lake to the Ottawa River. Rgds, Dixon -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Sat Dec 11 19:13:53 1993 >From: Benjamin Smith To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Driving to Utah Reply-To: ranger@ugcs.caltech.edu Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1993 16:59:45 -0800 From: Ben Smith Status: RO Well, finals are over and its time for the annual ski trip. The Rover's had all of its fluids replaced or topped off. The roofrack and inside are full of stuff, parts, and jerry cans. Four college students, 700 miles to go in an 88, the sun is setting and it look like rain and snow from here (LA) to Salt Lake City. It should be a sporting adventure. If only one of my passengers knew how to drive a standard transmission it would be alot easier. (why do so many Americans find it too difficult to learn how to drive a standard transmission?) I'll be back in a week (and I hope there are no breakdown stories to tell at the end) -Benjamin Smith ranger@ugcs.caltech.edu 1972 Land Rover Series III 88 From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Sat Dec 11 21:02:22 1993 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Ice racing From: dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (Dale Desprey) Reply-To: dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (Dale Desprey) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1993 11:44:25 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO The diesel started today, must be at least -10c. and without even being plugged in. Winter driving tip #5 Ice racing can be fun ( for you). A few years back, with the since departed ser III, we went to an ice race on a Quebec Lake. I had about 5 people in the truck, including friends and their girlfriends. After the official race, and several beers, we decided to try ice racing in the land Rover. There were only 3 or so cars on the track. We did quite well, being able to catch up to some of the cars. For some reason, alll but one car decided that they didn't want to practice anymore. The ice racing equiped Honda remained. It was difficult, but we kept on driving, around, slowly gaining. It seemed he was just trying harder and harder to get away. So we went faster. As we were closing in, I lost control and went straight through the snow barrier (you know, the things that are supposed to keep the cars on the track). The friends who elected to stay in the bar which overlooked the lake, wimps, say that it was an impressive sight, snow flying everywhere, eclipsing briefly the truck, as we bashed through. Apparently all the patrons had their red noses pushed against the frosty glass. Freed from the confines of the track, we drove around the lake. Until we saw the open water under the bridge. We went back to the bar. It was real quiet when we walked in. Decided we should go. As soon as we hit pavement we realized we had a flat tire. Hitting the snow barrier had broken the bead. Got one of my friends girlfriends, who wanted to be just one of the guys, to change it for me. Dale Desprey -- Dale Desprey, dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Dec 13 06:32:46 1993 To: lro@stratus.com From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andy Woodward) Subject: Re: Wet,Wet,Wet Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1993 12:13:56 Cc: azw@aber.ac.uk Status: RO >You guys make me feel like I'm afraid to get the Green Rover's feet wet. >The deepest I've ever had the Green Rover was during our floods of '81 and '82 >when the creek going under the 1/4 mile driveway to the slough decided to become >part of the slough. I don't know how deep I was wading her but the water line >was half way up the seat box. At that time I measured the height of the >distributer off the ground and waded out into the drive way to make sure the >distributer would still be above water then ether drove to or from work. One >evening I decided the driveway was deeper than the distributer by about a foot, >parked her on the street side and waded home. Well it was raining hard that >night and there was a strong wind coming off the ocean.... >Take care and don't go fishing inside your Rovers. They're nowhere near as good at fording as Renault 4s. My freind had one which failed its MOT, so we took it green roading. Along one of these tracks is a HOLE full of water and other stuff, where the S.A.S. had got a Unimog stuck on excercise. (You have to be seriouslly brain-dead to sink a Unimog....). Oviously there was no way thru, but he reckoned he could get it round the side. So the pedal went to the metal, and the Renault took to the air. Unfortunately, it landed a couple of yards short and buried itself a couple of fett into the mud. We got it thru with a bush windlass improvised from a defunct climbing rope, but hte track became impassable a few hundred yards further on. (God alone knows what they'd sunk _there_!) So it had to come back. I'd left the 90 at the other side of the Unimog Wallow so we simply pulled the 4 back directly thru the Wallow with the rope. As the water came over the wheels, all was well. As it came over the bonnet, my freind began to look a little perturbed. As it rose towards the roof, his eyes got wider and wider....... Luckily it stopped rising with breathing space left (I had the house keys...), and the 4 rose majestically from the deep. Strangely, he scrapped the 4 next day. From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Dec 13 06:11:12 1993 To: lro@stratus.com From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andy Woodward) Subject: Re: Ice racing Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1993 11:50:29 Cc: azw@aber.ac.uk Status: RO >to get away. So we went faster. As we were closing in, I lost control >and went straight through the snow barrier (you know, the things that are >supposed to keep the cars on the track). The friends who elected to stay >in the bar which overlooked the lake, wimps, say that it was an >impressive sight, snow flying everywhere, eclipsing briefly the truck, as >we bashed through. Apparently all the patrons had their red noses pushed >against the frosty glass. Used to be a standard wya of dealing with snow drifts in the old days, beefore salted raods, and police shutting roads at the first dusting of sleet - i.e. when men were men.... You hit a drift fast, and it explodes away. Hit it not quite fast enough and it compacts and writes the car off....... Not a good idea nowadays tho, cos hereabouts, most drifts have abandoned Minis under em..... From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Fri Dec 10 18:05:55 1993 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: Re: Wet,Wet,Wet From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Reply-To: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1993 14:20:49 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO azw@aber.ac.uk (Andy Woodward) writes: > The front right roof leaks, but not the front left. What is the official > LR part number of this leak, so I can allow the passenger to enjoy the > experience to the full? Hmmm, a nintey eh... It would be rather fun to exchange the roof with someone over here who has the same problem on the left hand side. Rgds, Dixon -- dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Dec 13 10:27:13 1993 To: lro@stratus.com Subject: weekend From: dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (Dale Desprey) Reply-To: dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (Dale Desprey) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 09:03:57 -0500 Organization: FourFold Symmetry - Nepean, Ontario, Canada Status: RO I was out in Almonte on Sunday, Dixon, but never got around to dropping by. Had quite an adventure. First, I couldn't get it to start. It would sort of fire, then it would change its mind. I don't know whether it is better to pump the accelerator, or just hold it down about 3/4 the way down. Which method do you use Mike? Finally got it started and retightened the clamp holding the exhaust pipe to the manifold. It keeps vibrating loose. On the way to Almonte, a car speeding at 90 mph did an emergency swerve around me, its tires a screaming. The passenger glares back as if it's my fault. Not like they couldn't see me. At first I thought it was some kind of emergency, but the car was going in the wrong direction for that to be the case. Lucky they didn't hit a car in the oncoming lane. There was lots of ice up there. This makes the ride alot smoother, as it fills in the craters. I was with my friend in the Jimmy, who went first. In many areas, we could drive right over the ice. Where the water was deeper, we would break through. It was fun to watch, the Jimmy driving along, then sploosh, straight down. He had to break the ice, about the thickness of an encyclopaedia, to get out. he would ram the ice, which would stop him, back up, and try again. With the dirty work done, I had an easier jod. The problem I has was the chunks of ice that would get pushed up against the shore. Very slippy. Almost disaster. I was following the Jimmy along a straight stretch, with frozen puddles, at speed. ( I would guess 10 - 15 mph) He zoomed over a section of road that considerably lower than the surrounding grade, and thus filled with water and frozen. As I drove across, all hell broke loose. Left front wheel breaks through. Back end jerks around. I am thrown into the passenger seat. Front end jumps out and hits the embankment at an angle. The truck is airborne. If feel the truck about to roll over. I experience that sickening moment of panic and raw fear that seems to last for an eternity. Fortunatly, it slams back over as the back wheel hits ground. As the Land Rover bounces over the frozen hard countryside, I scramble into the drivers seat. I stop, get out and check for damage. No damage to the truck that I could see. My adrenalin was rather high, and today my back is a little sore, but no damage to me either. Winter driving tip #5? Dale Desprey -- Dale Desprey, dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca FourFold Symmetry, Nepean, Ontario, Canada From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Dec 13 16:07:21 1993 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 93 14:02:51 -0800 From: "TeriAnn Wakeman" Reply-To: "TeriAnn Wakeman" To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: ARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!! Status: RO I don't know whether to throw the Green Rover over a cliff or commit suicide before working on it again!!! PROBLEM: Still no brakes WHAT I'VE DONE: Take a series IIA 109, add power brake peddle assembly & booster (seris III). Add a brand new 109 duel master cylinder, and break the old line system into front & rear. The exact steps for this conversion to be written up later when I make sure everything is done correctly. Bleed the system with an E-Z bleed system. Result, no brakes. SYMPTOMS: Brakes go to near floor, start to work for an instant, then quickly bleeds to the floor & any brake disappears. Before conversion, brakes required one pump & held firm 1/4 up from floor. I have not fiddled around with adjustment or wheel cylinders to minimize variables. There is no sign of fluid leaks at the new line junctions nor of any fluid loss from the resevoir. The master cylinder is a new Girling unit. I checked, & I have the correct lines going to the front and to the back. The booster is doing some things that I do not feel comfortable with, but its my understanding that the failure mode is the brakes being hard to push, but working (The front of the booster flexes about 1/4 inch when the peddle is pushed to the floor, and there is a small stress crack near one of the master cylinder mounting studs that passes some air when the peddle is pushed). I pulled the master cylinder off the servo unit and the push rod does indeed push out..a long way. Anyone have ANY ideas about what could be going on??? This project has been extreamly furstrating (What do you mean the flares are different??) and I am approaching wits end on something that should be sorta straight forward. The only thing I can think of is that the new Girling master cylinder I got from Merseyside Land Rover services has a problem that leaks pressure from both pistons. What good is a duel system if one part can cause failure in both systems? I wonder if I could exchange the part & if it would cost a fortune doing so. I'm new at this duel master cylinder and boster servo stuff. Any help & insite would be VERY much appriciated. Frustrated on Monterey Bay, TeriAnn TeriAnn Wakeman One of these days, I'll be old enough that twakeman@apple.com people will stop calling me crazy and start LINK: TWAKEMAN calling me eccentric. 408-974-2344 TR3A - TS75519L, MGBGT - GHD4U149572G, 109 - 164000561 From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Dec 13 16:19:56 1993 X-Authentication-Warning: tornadic.sw.stratus.com: Host localhost.stratus.com didn't use HELO protocol To: "TeriAnn Wakeman" Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Re: ARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 13 Dec 93 14:02:51 PST." <9312132202.AA21327@apple.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 93 17:15:53 -0500 From: William Caloccia Status: RO Well, two things, As I understand it with the fitment of a master cylinder (just did one on my XR4Ti a few weeks back, turns out it wasn't actually leaking though) there are two things that you need to be concerned about, first being that the unit is 'bench bled' before fitting on the car, you want to make sure that you don't have air in the new MC when you plug in the brake lines. Second is that, sometimes, you need to shim or adjust the pistion which activates the MC coming from the booster -- too long (or too close) the piston restricist travel of the pedal, and you're on the brakes w/o wanting to be. I suppose it is possible that the piston could be too short and you'd put down the pedal and then get some brakes. Seems like you've got neither of the adjustment problems, though someone with more experience could say I'm off on that. > Brakes go to near floor, start to work for an instant, then quickly bleeds to > the floor & any brake disappears. Given your symptoms it sounds like you've got a lump of air somewhere in the system, you might as well start with the MC and work your way out... -- Bill From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Dec 13 19:53:33 1993 From: daryl@menzies.su.edu.au (Daryl Webb) Subject: Rover factory repair ?? To: lro@stratus.com (Land Rover Owners Group) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 93 10:52:14 CST Status: RO My quip to terri-ann about matches requires more explaination. The father-inlaw, Andrew, was trained as a mechanic by "The Rover Company" and for some reason detests all thing british, especially my Land-rover. At one point in time he was stationed in South Africa as a factory trained mechanic for the local Rover agent. I'm a bit short on fine details but the story goes something like this. At this time there was a particulary frustrating and inconvenient problem with Land-rover carburetors (whats new) and there was a factory recall to replace or repair them. Of course not all owners were close enough to to get this done immediately. A short-term fix was devised using the end of a match stick which was apparently stuffed into one of then air ports in the carby top. This worked for a while until the match worked loose and had to be replaced. When someone from a remote location contacted the dealer about getting the repair done they were sent detailed instructions on how to install the match, a complementary box of matches, and the usual grovelly type letter explaining that the problem would be repaired under warranty, sorry for the inconvenience, etc etc. One day an envelope arrived at the dealership. In it was the instructions for the "matchstick repair", Unopened. One of the complementary boxes of matches, with one used match stuck to the outside; and a note. Thanks, Problem solved. Daryl Webb (daryl@menzies.su.edu.au) '82 Land-Rover SIII stage I V8 county wagon _-*_|\ ( 365,000+ K and *nearly* stuffed) / \ "Oil leak officer, What oil leak ?" \_.--._/ Darwin Australia (Kakadu country) "Top end Down-under" v From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Dec 13 19:47:08 1993 From: daryl@menzies.su.edu.au (Daryl Webb) Subject: Re: ARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!! To: twakeman@apple.com Date: Tue, 14 Dec 93 10:04:50 CST Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com In-Reply-To: <9312132202.AA21327@apple.com>; from "TeriAnn Wakeman" at Dec 13, 93 02:02:51 pm Status: RO Hi terri-ann, Land-rover brakes Yum Yum, one of my favourites :-) Some of the things I say may seem basic, sorry if you've heard it a thousand times. 1. As Bill suggested make sure that the pushrod is of the correct length, I cant remember if rovers have different lengths, but it is possible. With the servo pumped dry (no vacuum left) you should be able to feel the free play at the back of the master, I cant remember how much it is supposed to be, Its in the FM (manual) somewhere. Probably ~1-2mm ??. The pushrod will probably be adjustable, but likely seized. :-( 2. Bench bleed the master. You can do this without a vice if your hands are big enough to be able to put your fingers over the outlets. Make sure that both pistons/circuits are air free. From memory its easier to bleed the rear piston first, then the front. 3. bleed the wheels, most distant from the master first, closest last, probasbly RR, LR RF LF. *Dont have vacuum in the servo.* I have no idea what an ezi-bleed is, generally I just open the bleed valve (or pipe joint if need be) and let gravity take its course for a while. This wont get out all the bubbles but will concentrate them in one spot. :-) You will then need an assistant or some wizz bang device to finish the bleeding. You will probably need to adjust the brakes first. From memory Its easier to bleed the air out if you back the shoes off (on the wheel cyl of interest only) initially. This allows more fluid to flow thru the system, but gives a lousy pedal. Once you think you have the air out of that cyl, re-adjust the brakes and move on to the next. Once you have convinced yourself that no air is left in the system, go and rebleed everything just for the hell of it. You *may* now have a reasonable pedal. If it still feels spongy then there is still air in it. (10 : 1 its in the front.) To find out where grab your polished girling brake hose clamp(s), (or your rusty vice grips and a rag) and clamp of the flexible links. Start with the rear one above the diff. If the pedal doesnt change clamp off one of the front wheels. With any luck you should be able to isolate the source of the air. If you find that you can clamp off all the flexible links and still have a problem, its time for the matches. Seriously, this would indicate that the problem is in the master or between it and the flexible links. For those with sIII dual systems the brake failure shuttle switch can be a source of great angst. Often at this stage I have found that there appears to be air in the front but I cant bleed it out. Solution: Raise the front of the beast as high as you can (within reason), ramps will just do, but higher is better. If possible leave overnight (for personal reasons) and rebleed the front. Dont ask me why it works, but it does. If you're still with me I hope this helps and that I didnt forget too much. best of luck. Daryl Webb (daryl@menzies.su.edu.au) '82 Land-Rover SIII stage I V8 county wagon _-*_|\ ( 365,000+ K and *nearly* stuffed) / \ "Oil leak officer, What oil leak ?" \_.--._/ Darwin Australia (Kakadu country) "Top end Down-under" v From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Dec 13 17:50:09 1993 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 93 15:44:37 -0800 From: "TeriAnn Wakeman" Reply-To: "TeriAnn Wakeman" To: cak@parc.xerox.com, lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Re: ARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!! Status: RO In message <93Dec13.144208pst.55939@egeus.parc.xerox.com> "Chris Kent Kantarjiev" writes: > Can you see the fluid level in the reservoir change when you press the > pedal, indicating that fluid is actually being taken into the m/c? > The resevoir is translucent plastic. But if memory serves, I think the level was actually going up when I pressed the peddle > Do you have the engine running (to supply vacuum for the booster) when > doing this test? I tried it with & without. no difference. c Chris? Some how I didn't really expect you on the Land Rover list. Did you get one?? TeriAnn TeriAnn Wakeman One of these days, I'll be old enough that twakeman@apple.com people will stop calling me crazy and start LINK: TWAKEMAN calling me eccentric. 408-974-2344 TR3A - TS75519L, MGBGT - GHD4U149572G, 109 - 164000561 From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Dec 13 17:03:17 1993 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 93 17:57:43 EST From: I feel a Jackson Pollock coming on To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Apparently-To: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Re: ARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!! Status: RO TeriAnn says: >The master cylinder is a new Girling unit. I checked, & I have the correct >lines going to the front and to the back. This wouldn't be a case of a Girling unit vs. a Genuine Original Land-Rover Part (TM of Rover's North) would it? ;-) Suppose I shouldn't talk, I have a brand new OD and I'm too much of a whimp to go out and put it on.... monty From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Dec 13 16:45:06 1993 To: "TeriAnn Wakeman" Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Re: ARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!! In-Reply-To: twakeman's message of Mon, 13 Dec 93 14:02:51 -0800. <9312132202.AA21327@apple.com> X-Face: ;F1i:c.5WjM"fi5"DpJ_)/9l,$3ij12_"J7catfSLlS3pI8x~_'d-\{;OzSY+n,r/tf )-j:)z&8exw9:)^!TcW]Sq; From: "Chris Kent Kantarjiev" Status: RO Can you see the fluid level in the reservoir change when you press the pedal, indicating that fluid is actually being taken into the m/c? Do you have the engine running (to supply vacuum for the booster) when doing this test? From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Dec 13 16:42:12 1993 From: Mark V Grieshaber Subject: Re: ARRRRGGGHHHH!!!! To: land-rover-owner@stratus.com Date: Mon, 13 Dec 93 16:37:32 CST In-Reply-To: <9312132202.AA21327@apple.com>; from "TeriAnn Wakeman" at Dec 13, 93 2:02 pm Status: RO TeriAnn Wakeman said: > > I don't know whether to throw the Green Rover over a cliff or commit suicide > before working on it again!!! > > PROBLEM: > Still no brakes > > WHAT I'VE DONE: > ... Sounds like you've done everything right. As I understand it, you have no external fluid leaks, but nonetheless, a loss in whatever pressure you are able to build up. Sounds suspiciously like a faulty master cylinder. Were it not for the fact that it is *new*, rather than rebuilt, I would almost bet on it. It is still my best guess. I just finished rejecting *TWO* rebuilt brake master cylinders for my Datsun 280Z - on both, the rear bled and worked fine, but I could not bleed the front. I ended up proving it to myself (this is also my suggestion in your case, since it is so easy to do) by pulling the master cylinder, plugging the outlets (rubber plugs and steel bar over them with a c-clamp to hold it tight) and mounting it in a bench vise. Then I was able to isolate it completely from the rest of the vehicle. There was then no way to be confused if something else in the system was screwing me up. Only took about 20 minutes too, what with pulling it out and plugging it and testing it. I ended up dismantling it, hoping for a improperly installed cup seal or something easily remedied, but nothing obvious. A *new* master cylinder from a different source fixed my problem immediately. If you do bench mount the master cylinder after plugging both outlets, push in on the piston with a screwdriver. Everything should be rock hard, with no movement of the piston in the cylinder bore. If there is any movement, you either have air (would be bouncy then, and spring back when you release the piston pressure), or an internal leak (no spring back when you back off). Mark mvgrie@shute.monsanto.com From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Dec 14 08:13:10 1993 From: marcus@dcs.qmw.ac.uk Subject: Re: ARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!! To: daryl@menzies.su.edu.au (Daryl Webb) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1993 10:23:25 +0000 (GMT) Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com In-Reply-To: <9312140034.AA13579@sun1> from "Daryl Webb" at Dec 14, 93 10:04:50 am Content-Type: text Content-Length: 845 Status: RO > Solution: Raise the front of the beast as high as you can (within reason), > ramps will just do, but higher is better. If possible leave overnight (for > personal reasons) and rebleed the front. Dont ask me why it works, but it > does. > This works on vehicles fitted with the CB (compression barrel) single circuit master cylinder, ie usually 109s - this is because the design of the CB cylinder is such that air becomes trapped in the end-cap at the back of the cylinder which points upward. Raising the front of the vehicle results in the cylinder taking up a more or less horizontal position and thus allows the air to reach the outlet which is at least 2" from the back of the cylinder and thus normally out of range of the trapped air. This probably doesn't apply to Teri-Ann as she has a dual-circuit cylinder... Marcus. From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Mon Dec 13 17:57:46 1993 To: "TeriAnn Wakeman" Cc: lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Re: ARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!! In-Reply-To: twakeman's message of Mon, 13 Dec 93 15:44:37 -0800. <9312132344.AA11063@apple.com> X-Face: ;F1i:c.5WjM"fi5"DpJ_)/9l,$3ij12_"J7catfSLlS3pI8x~_'d-\{;OzSY+n,r/tf )-j:)z&8exw9:)^!TcW]Sq; From: "Chris Kent Kantarjiev" Status: RO Chris? Some how I didn't really expect you on the Land Rover list. Did you get one?? Nope, still a wannabe, but it's fun to watch. If the level is going up much when you press the pedal, then you have a seal problem; your foot pressure is forcing the fluid out of the cylinder into the reservoir instead of out the pipes. There should be a one-way valve in the m/c (I'm speaking generically here, that's how they work) that allows fluid to go down from the reservoir to fill the system and accomodate wear and leaks, but that valve must seal to pressurize the system. From car-list-rejects@transfer.stratus.com Tue Dec 14 11:03:15 1993 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 93 09:00:42 -0800 From: "TeriAnn Wakeman" Reply-To: "TeriAnn Wakeman" To: daryl@menzies.su.edu.au, twakeman@apple.com, lro@transfer.stratus.com Subject: Re: ARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!! Status: RO In message <9312140034.AA13579@sun1> Daryl Webb writes: > Hi terri-ann, Land-rover brakes Yum Yum, one of my favourites :-) > 1. As Bill suggested make sure that the pushrod is of the correct length, I > cant remember if rovers have different lengths, but it is possible. With the > servo pumped dry (no vacuum left) you should be able to feel the free play at > the back of the master, I cant remember how much it is supposed to be, Its > in the FM (manual) somewhere. Probably ~1-2mm ??. The pushrod will > probably be adjustable, but likely seized. :-( The FM???? I have the pair of white factory manuals and they have NOTHING to say about duel brakes, the cylinders or boostors. If someone has a manual that covers these things I would sure appriciate finding a photocopy of the pertinate pages in my snail mail box. > > > 2. Bench bleed the master. You can do this without a vice if your hands are > big enough to be able to put your fingers over the outlets. Make sure that > both pistons/circuits are air free. From memory its easier to bleed the rear > piston first, then the front. I have heard of bench bleeding, but I have no idea how it is done. Is this something you can do in place? i.e. disconnect the brake lines and press the brake peddle? Is this really needed in a duel master cylinder? > > Daryl W